• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Active Line Array vs Powered Speaker Sound System for New Band

I am in the process of building a band and after having a conversation with a mastering engineer he told me that it does not matter how good your band is if your sound PA does not allow their talent to be displayed the audience. With bad sound the audience will never know how good your band is. He told me to invest in Active Line Array speakers but I will be honest I really don't know what those are or the advantage of ALA vs regular powered speakers. Hopefully there is someone in the forum who is willing to explain it to me.

In regards to gear for a stander PA for a band I was thinking all powered speakers, 18' subs 1000w, tops 700w-1000w and possibly 5 monitors for my ultimate wish list. Is this sufficient or to much for a band that consist of 1 lead vocalist, 2 background singers, 1 keyboard, 1 guitarist, me on bass and a drummer? My engineer told me to stay away from wedge monitors because of feed back issues but I am not in a position to invest in an in-ear system at this time. Thanks in advance for your help
 
In my experience with line array systems, they are more efficient than a standard system. In the company I used to work for we had a professional level line array with something like a 110 degree splay for the stack. We would take the measurement of the room, and it told us how far apart to put the stacks. If we were hanging the system, we would take a tape measure and hang it from the ceiling, and then that would tell us what the "curl" of the speaker cluster would be. All of the dimensions were put into a computer program and it would then tell you "If you are hanging it at X feet off the floor, put the pin in hole 8 and then the the thing would curl around and you get the most efficient sound dispersion. It was all really scientific to me. But basically the idea behind it was that there wasn't really anywhere in the room that it didnt sound the same. No drop off in the middle or right under the cluster hang. You might still use a front fill, but that is just for a little extra umph. Also with the system we had, there were no amp racks because each speaker had its own amp built in. They were the first powered speakers I had ever seen, before Behringer and all the ones like that became popular. We just ran power and an XLR with signal to the first speaker and then jumped them together with short XLRs. Me and one other guy did a two cluster hang with 8 speakers on each side in about 45 minutes. That was rolling the cases in and hooking them up to the chain and pulling them out of the box. Three speakers per box. Roll the next case under the first three and hang them underneath then use the motor to pull them out of the box. No lifting at all Everything about them was easier than stacking boxes. In the old days we would hand four 600 pound speaker boxes and you would have to pull a rope attached to them to get the sound spread throughout the room. The whole LA cluster weighed as much as one of the old speakers. If you have been to a big concert in the past 10 years and have seen the big speaker groups hanging at the corners of the stage and curving back then you know what I mean.

Now, obviously you wouldnt be having to deal with all of this unless you've hit the bigtime and are playing in a big arena or something like that! I know there are some local band level line array systems out there by people like Bose and maybe Behriger or Harbinger and the like that do essentially the same thing at floor level. But in my opinion, a powered system and a LA are kind of the same thing in a local band situation, except for the way they project the sound. Think of a line array PA like a water hose on spray and the two showers of water crossing in the middle. If you are outdoors a lot a LA might be the way to go, but in a small inside club it would be overkill IMO

As for the comment about the wedges I dont really know what to say about that. I've used wedges for probably 25 years and if you know how to turn down the level for that send, then it should never feed back. Mastering a recording and live sound are not even the same thing. I would ask someone who does live sound.

Sorry I got so long winded in that first paragraph, but I was working sound reinforcement when line arrays first hit the field and it was really cool and exciting to see how they changed the way we did pretty much everything for the setup.

Ive got some pictures from back in the day somewhere that shows all of this. If I can find them I'll post them later.

BnB

PS -- JBL makes a really killer VRX rig that works like a line array but it's pricey. However, three boxes and a 3-4 subs per side will WASTE the average high school gymnasium. Really great rig.
 
In my experience with line array systems, they are more efficient than a standard system. In the company I used to work for we had a professional level line array with something like a 110 degree splay for the stack. We would take the measurement of the room, and it told us how far apart to put the stacks. If we were hanging the system, we would take a tape measure and hang it from the ceiling, and then that would tell us what the "curl" of the speaker cluster would be. All of the dimensions were put into a computer program and it would then tell you "If you are hanging it at X feet off the floor, put the pin in hole 8 and then the the thing would curl around and you get the most efficient sound dispersion. It was all really scientific to me. But basically the idea behind it was that there wasn't really anywhere in the room that it didnt sound the same. No drop off in the middle or right under the cluster hang. You might still use a front fill, but that is just for a little extra umph. Also with the system we had, there were no amp racks because each speaker had its own amp built in. They were the first powered speakers I had ever seen, before Behringer and all the ones like that became popular. We just ran power and an XLR with signal to the first speaker and then jumped them together with short XLRs. Me and one other guy did a two cluster hang with 8 speakers on each side in about 45 minutes. That was rolling the cases in and hooking them up to the chain and pulling them out of the box. Three speakers per box. Roll the next case under the first three and hang them underneath then use the motor to pull them out of the box. No lifting at all Everything about them was easier than stacking boxes. In the old days we would hand four 600 pound speaker boxes and you would have to pull a rope attached to them to get the sound spread throughout the room. The whole LA cluster weighed as much as one of the old speakers. If you have been to a big concert in the past 10 years and have seen the big speaker groups hanging at the corners of the stage and curving back then you know what I mean.

Now, obviously you wouldnt be having to deal with all of this unless you've hit the bigtime and are playing in a big arena or something like that! I know there are some local band level line array systems out there by people like Bose and maybe Behriger or Harbinger and the like that do essentially the same thing at floor level. But in my opinion, a powered system and a LA are kind of the same thing in a local band situation, except for the way they project the sound. Think of a line array PA like a water hose on spray and the two showers of water crossing in the middle. If you are outdoors a lot a LA might be the way to go, but in a small inside club it would be overkill IMO

As for the comment about the wedges I dont really know what to say about that. I've used wedges for probably 25 years and if you know how to turn down the level for that send, then it should never feed back. Mastering a recording and live sound are not even the same thing. I would ask someone who does live sound.

Sorry I got so long winded in that first paragraph, but I was working sound reinforcement when line arrays first hit the field and it was really cool and exciting to see how they changed the way we did pretty much everything for the setup.

Ive got some pictures from back in the day somewhere that shows all of this. If I can find them I'll post them later.

BnB

PS -- JBL makes a really killer VRX rig that works like a line array but it's pricey. However, three boxes and a 3-4 subs per side will WASTE the average high school gymnasium. Really great rig.
Great information thank you
 
What specific speakers are you looking at? The line array that the previous poster was talking about is probably beyond the scope of most bands.

Systems like the QSC KLA on the other hand are a great middle ground. I've been considering getting some KLA tops to use when I would use QSC kw153 because one person can get a couple of KLA onto stands but not the kw153.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jchrisk1
Don't look at line arrays if you're not playing arenas. They are used in large spaces for pattern control and SPL where their downsides aren't as apparent.

Also, don't look at watts. They mean nothing. A 1000w sub can easily be quieter than a 100w sub.

Can you talk to a live sound person? Just because you have a guy that does mastering doesn't mean he can mix. They are very different beasts.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Supadope and fokof
What specific speakers are you looking at? The line array that the previous poster was talking about is probably beyond the scope of most bands.

Systems like the QSC KLA on the other hand are a great middle ground. I've been considering getting some KLA tops to use when I would use QSC kw153 because one person can get a couple of KLA onto stands but not the kw153.
This is all new to me so I am just researching and reading up on brands it seems QSC has been the most popular. In regards to the information in this thread and what I have read Line Array may be a bit much for a band so I am leaning back towards powered speakers for the price alone.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 40Hz
Don't look at line arrays if you're not playing arenas. They are used in large spaces for pattern control and SPL where their downsides aren't as apparent.

Also, don't look at watts. They mean nothing. A 1000w sub can easily be quieter than a 100w sub.

Can you talk to a live sound person? Just because you have a guy that does mastering doesn't mean he can mix. They are very different beasts.
My only access to a sound person would be a Guitar Center and Sam Ash, if there is anyone here who can recommend specs I am all ears
 
As a bandleader and audio engineer, I say take it slow. I see too many people who rush out and buy a bunch of pricey equipment and then have no idea how to use it. The more full-featured and "pro" your system is, the more complex it will be. If you are new to running sound (and playing at the same time) then take it easy. Since these systems are all modular you can grow them as your knowledge evolves.

Buy a beginner system. There is no shame in starting with something basic. I guarantee the audience won't know or care. It sounds like you can get away with a simple 8-12 channel mixer, 2 powered 12" PA speakers and 2 powered 8" or 10" powered speakers as monitors/backups. You don't need a sub to get started. Buy used and you can probably get everything you need for under $1,500. Look for big brand names like Mackie, Alto, Yamaha or QSC. Save extra money for cases, cables and all the things you didn't know you needed like party lights, gaffe tape and cable ties.

A system like that will cover any kind of party, wedding or bar gig where you need to bring your own PA. 99% of those situations don't want overpowering volume all the way in the back of the room, so why bring extra firepower that will only get you in trouble. If you absolutely need more volume for a really large outdoor gig, you now own a modular system so it will be easy to borrow/rent a couple extra speakers for the night.
 
We use a system exactly as described above for the last 3 yrs. I use 2 yamaha dxr 12s for mains and 3 dxr 10s for wedges and a single powered sub. Sounds great and is powerful enough for medium sized clubs while still being portable and quick to set up. These and a A&H digital board replaced huge speaker stacks and racks we had been using and are so much better sounding and easier to move. I ran with that new bose line array my buddy bought and was dying to test at a larger venue a couple weeks ago and it sounded pretty good for sure, but I can't recommend my current Yamaha (or qsc) system enough for working bands who schlepp their own stuff every night.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jsun_Tyler
The best "tool" you can have for a sound system is......a good set of ears. It doesn't matter if you have an old 1970's era Peavey "box system," as long as it's mechanically 100% functional, you should be good for a startup to mid-level group in smaller settings. I cannot stress enough though, to DON'T skimp on microphones and crappy cables. Good signal in + good critical listening skills + some basic knowledge of EQ and effects = a good/solid/basic mix that doesn't sound like mud :)
 
Unless you're playing large (LARGE) outdoor shows or large theaters with raked seating you don't need a line array. Like others have said, line arrays are about pattern control, keeping reflections from side walls to a minimum and throwing a looong distance from the stage.

QSC is a great choice for a traditional small format PA. The new K.2 models have twice the power of the old models and sound really nice. Aside from that I'd look at some powered speakers and subs from EV or JBL.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jsun_Tyler
As a bandleader and audio engineer, I say take it slow. I see too many people who rush out and buy a bunch of pricey equipment and then have no idea how to use it. The more full-featured and "pro" your system is, the more complex it will be. If you are new to running sound (and playing at the same time) then take it easy. Since these systems are all modular you can grow them as your knowledge evolves.

Buy a beginner system. There is no shame in starting with something basic. I guarantee the audience won't know or care. It sounds like you can get away with a simple 8-12 channel mixer, 2 powered 12" PA speakers and 2 powered 8" or 10" powered speakers as monitors/backups. You don't need a sub to get started. Buy used and you can probably get everything you need for under $1,500. Look for big brand names like Mackie, Alto, Yamaha or QSC. Save extra money for cases, cables and all the things you didn't know you needed like party lights, gaffe tape and cable ties.

A system like that will cover any kind of party, wedding or bar gig where you need to bring your own PA. 99% of those situations don't want overpowering volume all the way in the back of the room, so why bring extra firepower that will only get you in trouble. If you absolutely need more volume for a really large outdoor gig, you now own a modular system so it will be easy to borrow/rent a couple extra speakers for the night.

I am looking at doing something similar soon for a system for me and my boys to use when we jam. I'll probably spend a little more up front since I don't want to be replacing anything down the road. Looking to start with a Soundcraft Ui24R Mixer and two QSC K12.2 powered speakers. No sub to start as my bass amp should provide enough bump for what we'll be doing. The Soundcraft unit is rack based, so I'll likely buy something like this as well Gator GRB-4U - 4 Rack Spaces

I don't ever see myself outgrowing the Soundcraft unit ($999) vs smaller options that don't save much money.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jsun_Tyler
We have QSC K12s (2) and K Subs (2). Usually use just 1 k sub. They sound superb and are very robust and durable. They can handle a 200 cap room no problem. My band is hard rock/old school metal, and we get the desired crisp punchy bass and drum sound out the the k sub (2 12 inch speakers) rather than the boomy bass I often perceive from single 18 inch subs. My bass rig and guitar players rig are mostly for stage volume and looks but sometimes get turned up if sound guy calls for it.
We went with these because a club we play 8 to 10 times a year has these; 4 k12s and 2 K subs as their house system. It is a smokey club, this gear is used heavily 4 times a week by different sound guys with different mixers and experience levels and has held up for years with minor servicing.(cleaning constant cigarette funk off the innards mostly)
Don't go without 1 K sub, it takes a huge power load off the mains.
They sit at the higher price point of mid range gear but worth the extra money.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jsun_Tyler
We have QSC K12s (2) and K Subs (2). Usually use just 1 k sub. They sound superb and are very robust and durable. They can handle a 200 cap room no problem. My band is hard rock/old school metal, and we get the desired crisp punchy bass and drum sound out the the k sub (2 12 inch speakers) rather than the boomy bass I often perceive from single 18 inch subs. My bass rig and guitar players rig are mostly for stage volume and looks but sometimes get turned up if sound guy calls for it.
We went with these because a club we play 8 to 10 times a year has these; 4 k12s and 2 K subs as their house system. It is a smokey club, this gear is used heavily 4 times a week by different sound guys with different mixers and experience levels and has held up for years with minor servicing.(cleaning constant cigarette funk off the innards mostly)
Don't go without 1 K sub, it takes a huge power load off the mains.
They sit at the higher price point of mid range gear but worth the extra money.

Do you center the sub or subs? I read somewhere NOT to put them on the sides under the mains and that they need to be centered.
 

Latest posts