Adding "space" to you IEM sound

[SteveC]

So I play at church. All DI, nice FOH, we all have individual IEM mixes, controlled by our iPhones, etc. I use a Radial JDI which sounds nice, maybe too nice. I want to add some character, space, whatever to my IEM sound. We have the ability to add a room mic. I tried it last week but I don't know if it's a good spot or not (by the mix location) or if I didn't run it at a high enough level.

There are threads about adding reverb or delay but I don't think I need/want that in my FOH sound. I like what's there. I just want more "life" in my ears. Any thoughts?

We use a Presonus StudioLive board - I think it's a 32.4.2AI. It's very nice and has all the bells and whistles.

 

[mrharrell]

I am preparing to head down the IEM rabbit hole soon, and have been wondering about adding an overdrive to the DI for more of a natural amp sound. Micing the amp might be a possibility for me, but I'm interested to see what responses you get. I've been wondering if I'll get a good representation of the FOH in my IEMs (Westone UM30-Pro).

 

[SteveC]

Westones are great earpieces. I have UM2's and love them. I am pretty sure I'm hearing a representation of my FOH tone, but the nature of IEM's leaves it a little dry. I don't know that I want to add much to my basic tone/FOH sound, just give my ears a little life. Maybe I'm way off.

 

[s0c9]

So I play at church. All DI, nice FOH, we all have individual IEM mixes, controlled by our iPhones, etc. I use a Radial JDI which sounds nice, maybe too nice. I want to add some character, space, whatever to my IEM sound. We have the ability to add a room mic. I tried it last week but I don't know if it's a good spot or not (by the mix location) or if I didn't run it at a high enough level.

There are threads about adding reverb or delay but I don't think I need/want that in my FOH sound. I like what's there. I just want more "life" in my ears. Any thoughts?

We use a Presonus StudioLive board - I think it's a 32.4.2AI. It's very nice and has all the bells and whistles.

Based on my experience(s) you have 2 options:
1 - judiciously add spatial effects into your mix which you can do with the SL - if you don't have all 4 effects busses used up already.
2 - get better IEM's.

You didn't state which IEM's you use (oops.. yes you did), but the number of drivers and the associated sound stage will certainly impact what you hear in the mix, with or without effects. Character/space tends to be built into the IEM's design.
You'll get much better spatial reference (sound stage?) with a stereo feed and (at least) triple drivers... you'll get NONE of that with single drivers and a mono feed.
I had UM1's and upgraded to 1964 Quads..

 

[Jerry Ziarko]

1 - judiciously add spatial effects into your mix which you can do with the SL - if you don't have all 4 effects busses used up already.

Even if all 4 effects busses are being used, I'm sure one of them will have a reverb assigned. Providing you have your OWN dedicated aux mix, it's a very easy fix. Use it like salt. You can always add more. Starting with too much ruins the experience.

 

[SteveC]

Not sure if we are setup for stereo me motor mixes. My guess is we could be but maybe aren't. I'm asking the tech guys right now.

 

[ggunn]

So I play at church. All DI, nice FOH, we all have individual IEM mixes, controlled by our iPhones, etc. I use a Radial JDI which sounds nice, maybe too nice. I want to add some character, space, whatever to my IEM sound. We have the ability to add a room mic. I tried it last week but I don't know if it's a good spot or not (by the mix location) or if I didn't run it at a high enough level.

There are threads about adding reverb or delay but I don't think I need/want that in my FOH sound. I like what's there. I just want more "life" in my ears. Any thoughts?

We use a Presonus StudioLive board - I think it's a 32.4.2AI. It's very nice and has all the bells and whistles.

All I can tell you is what I did. With my IEM's I was feeling isolated and closed in, so I added an ambient mic to my IEM mixer. It made a huge positive difference.

 

[JimmyM]

There are some acts who use audience mics just for their IEM's because they feel so isolated. I can see that.

 

[tbirdsp]

All I can tell you is what I did. With my IEM's I was feeling isolated and closed in, so I added an ambient mic to my IEM mixer. It made a huge positive difference.

I'm really thinking of doing this. I don't use a IEM mixer right now (except for the two channel "transmixer" that comes with the Shure PSM 200). I run the DI from my bass amp into one channel (then through to FOH) so I have instant "more me" of my bass if I want it. Other channel is the feed from the FOH mixer for my IEM. I have thought about adding a small mixer and mixing an ambient mic in - probably run the FOH IEM feed and the ambient mic into the mixer, then the output into one channel of the PSM200 box. I like my bass the way it is. Could you post some details of your setup?

 

[SteveC]

Not sure if we are setup for stereo me motor mixes. My guess is we could be but maybe aren't. I'm asking the tech guys right now.

We are not stereo but could be. It would require some re-arranging of channels, some Y cables, but it is doable I guess. I'll have to see what we can do.

Someone I trust also said I could add some "presence" by using a DI that is less clean - like an Aguilar THDI. I may explore that as well as I wouldn't mind having a more "present" sound out of my GB combo sometimes, too. Maybe kill two birds...

 

[s0c9]

I'm really thinking of doing this. I don't use a IEM mixer right now (except for the two channel "transmixer" that comes with the Shure PSM 200). I run the DI from my bass amp into one channel (then through to FOH) so I have instant "more me" of my bass if I want it. Other channel is the feed from the FOH mixer for my IEM. I have thought about adding a small mixer and mixing an ambient mic in - probably run the FOH IEM feed and the ambient mic into the mixer, then the output into one channel of the PSM200 box. I like my bass the way it is. Could you post some details of your setup?

We tried the ambient mic route (2 of them). Found that it didn't add much value, and actually caused muddier/confused mixes.. and dropped them after a couple of gigs. To be fair, that could have been due to not taking the time to "get them right", but most of us ended up muting both mic channels in our IEM mixes.
Obviously. YMMV

PS: What mixer do you have at FOH?
Do you have a sound guy running it?
You might be able to get the ambient mics into the main mix fed to your PSM200, or change the config to send the whole thing (+ bass) and control your own mix remotely.. simpler solution

 

[ggunn]

I'm really thinking of doing this. I don't use a IEM mixer right now (except for the two channel "transmixer" that comes with the Shure PSM 200). I run the DI from my bass amp into one channel (then through to FOH) so I have instant "more me" of my bass if I want it. Other channel is the feed from the FOH mixer for my IEM. I have thought about adding a small mixer and mixing an ambient mic in - probably run the FOH IEM feed and the ambient mic into the mixer, then the output into one channel of the PSM200 box. I like my bass the way it is. Could you post some details of your setup?

Sure (no pun intended). I used a Shure P4M mixer feeding a Shure wireless transmitter (I don't know the model). The P4M has 4 XLR feedthrough I/O's, two AUX inputs, and stereo outputs.

I ran a mic on my electric guitar amp (I played guitar in that band), my acoustic guitar, my vocal mic, and an ambient mic into the four inputs (with the first three passed on to FOH), and a feed from the front monitor mix into the L/MONO AUX input. The AUX inputs on the mixer don't have a volume control, so I built a simple voltage divider inline volume control for it from a pot and two 1/4" jacks. From those inputs I built a stereo mix for my IEMs. It took a bit of level juggling to get it right, but once I had it dialed in it worked great into my EAR custom IEMs.

I built a 2 space half rack to house the mixer and transmitter with a mic stand fitting on the bottom so that I could set it up within easy reach.

 

[morgansterne]

I was disappointed that I couldn't just plug a mic into the second input of my carvin iem transmitter for an ambient mic. Even with a battery powered condenser there's just not enough level, it needs a preamp. When we run sound ourselves the aux send I use is post fader -- no good for ambient mic. When we have someone else run sound i hate to ask for an ambient mic cause I just feel like a diva doing it.

 

[s0c9]

I was disappointed that I couldn't just plug a mic into the second input of my carvin iem transmitter for an ambient mic. Even with a battery powered condenser there's just not enough level, it needs a preamp. When we run sound ourselves the aux send I use is post fader -- no good for ambient mic. When we have someone else run sound i hate to ask for an ambient mic cause I just feel like a diva doing it.

The Carvin inputs require a line level signal.. as do most (if not all) IEM transmitters.. (as far as I know).
Going post-fader on an IEM mix is fraught with it's own issues, given that you have a "mix" just not the one you may want.. I would not want a post-fader FOH mix in my IEM's.. you really need pre-fader with access to the send levels to control your own mix. Can easily mix in an ambient mic level doing that. Should be no problem for someone else running sound, plus they can send as much to each IEM mix as the musician wants!

 

[morgansterne]

That's a good point about running monitors on a post fader aux! we don't tend to change levels a whole lot once they're set for the night.
I'm the only one in that band running IEMs. We're just a bar band but over the course of a four hour gig the ears get pretty beat up. I'm not trying to be high tech, just preserve my hearing. It's actually easier to use the in ears when we're running our own sound, because then I can just turn around to the mixer on stage and adjust something instead of asking the sound tech to change it for me.
I run a mono mix but being able to add in the room mic direct to me would be nice. I'd rather do that than ask a sound tech to do an extra step solely for my benefit. With the carvins I could then use the balance knob to mix in the ambience to taste. Perhaps a little art tube mp preamp would do the trick.

In band #2 we just got the behringer xr18 mixer so there I will have access to controlling my mix easily via my phone.

 

[Wadge]

In both my bands we use the presonus board. The way to open up the soundstage is 2 fold:

1) if at all possible go stereo. On the 32.4.2 you have 16 aux outputs that is up to 8 stereo mixes. Panning things like overheads and stereo keyboards hard left and right and placing different instruments in the stereo field makes a big difference.

2) you can add judiciously add a bit of reverb to certain instruments

 

[tbirdsp]

We tried the ambient mic route (2 of them). Found that it didn't add much value, and actually caused muddier/confused mixes.. and dropped them after a couple of gigs. To be fair, that could have been due to not taking the time to "get them right", but most of us ended up muting both mic channels in our IEM mixes.
Obviously. YMMV

PS: What mixer do you have at FOH?
Do you have a sound guy running it?
You might be able to get the ambient mics into the main mix fed to your PSM200, or change the config to send the whole thing (+ bass) and control your own mix remotely.. simpler solution

We normally use a guy who has a x32. I know I could just run my bass (and any ambient mics we set up) through my main monitor mix and control it with my iPhone - but I can barely see the thing without my reading glasses - which I don't wear except for sound check. Plus it's hard to grab the tiny faders on the iPhone. The way I run it - if I need more of my bass I can just quickly twist a knob on the PSM200 transmitter. Nobody else in the band seems too worried about ambient mics - the guitar player does the "one in, one out" thing with his IEM (despite me telling him he shouldn't). Singer is most concerned with vocals - I think she is getting enough of the other stuff (for her) picked up through vocal mics. She runs some guitar and her keyboard, but I don't think she has any drums or bass. If I ran an ambient mic I'd rather be in direct control of it myself (not via iPhone). I might pick up a little Behringer Xenyx802 mixer (or equivalent) that has two XLR inputs and phantom power, run a condenser mic on stage to one channel and the FOH monitor feed to the other, then the output to the PSM200.

 

[s0c9]

We normally use a guy who has a x32. I know I could just run my bass (and any ambient mics we set up) through my main monitor mix and control it with my iPhone - but I can barely see the thing without my reading glasses - which I don't wear except for sound check. Plus it's hard to grab the tiny faders on the iPhone. The way I run it - if I need more of my bass I can just quickly twist a knob on the PSM200 transmitter. Nobody else in the band seems too worried about ambient mics - the guitar player does the "one in, one out" thing with his IEM (despite me telling him he shouldn't). Singer is most concerned with vocals - I think she is getting enough of the other stuff (for her) picked up through vocal mics. She runs some guitar and her keyboard, but I don't think she has any drums or bass. If I ran an ambient mic I'd rather be in direct control of it myself (not via iPhone). I might pick up a little Behringer Xenyx802 mixer (or equivalent) that has two XLR inputs and phantom power, run a condenser mic on stage to one channel and the FOH monitor feed to the other, then the output to the PSM200.

Given the above.. I would agree that the small mixer route would be your best approach.

In our situation, we have a router-connected X32 Producer, and I have the iPad sitting on top of my SVT7pro/G90 gig-bags for easy access (see pic below)... We have permanent connections from the XLR bus outs to IEM transmitters mounted in the mixer rack -- we use Busses 1-5 as IEM mixes and 7/8 as main outs. Whether it's our PA we use or we snake-split off the house system we have minor input gain tweaks, same channel config, same IEM mix for each gig!
But.. we are doing 6-8 gigs a month, so simple use, and well worth the expense/config time.

I seldom change the mix after the slight adjustments needed during sound check/first few songs...

Sorry about the bad pic ( only one I could find) .. but you can see the X32 on top, wireless units mounted directly above the [red] BBE (don't ask.. it's been removed since this pic was taken) and the amps at the bottom. Where you see the 2 "yellow" lights in the black space between BBE and mixer are the router lights.. it sits on a flat pull-out rack tray.

 

[ggunn]

One general comment about IEM's: If anyone other than you has any control over your IEMs, make SURE you have a limiter on your end. Otherwise, a FOH or monitor guy could accidentally twist the wrong knob, blow your ears out, and not even be aware of it.

 

[Pelao]

To add space, add an audience mic. You could even have one permanently setup if you have a head rack. Just point towards the audience, and send that signal to the board.

I would avoid reverb because I don't think it is that you have too clean of signal, it's that you don't have enough ambient noise, IMO.