Adding "space" to you IEM sound

[jrick7]

There are some acts who use audience mics just for their IEM's because they feel so isolated. I can see that.

Agreed

To add space, add an audience mic. You could even have one permanently setup if you have a head rack. Just point towards the audience, and send that signal to the board.

I would avoid reverb because I don't think it is that you have too clean of signal, it's that you don't have enough ambient noise, IMO.

Agreed again, reverb can help but it's definitely not the same as having audience mics. My church has a couple of campuses and I play at both. At both we all go direct, and use IEM's with Avioms on stage for our own mixes. I get a good sound at both because I learned to spread everything out in the stereo mix (hard panning the two electrics, soft panning my bass and the keys which are run mono, and medium panning any background vocals). One campus gives us reverb to add to the whole mix, and the other has two room mics set up which I hard pan.

I get my best mixes in the ears at the campus that uses the room mics, BUT there are times when we have a volunteer sound guy that's not as good as maybe another one, and the ears don't sound great possibly due to the room having a weird mix (though there could be a number of things causing that).

One other benefit of room mics imo is that you can get a lot more of the low end in your ears than you do with just signal fed back to you from the board (this may be because our board doesn't send an EQ ed mix to the ears, but also may be due to having subwoofers throwing out lows into the room that you just can't hear over the harmonics of a plain bass signal.

 

[Silas Stingy]

For me compressing/limiting the IEM signal is key. You will hear the audience in the gaps between songs better, solely through the audio picked up by vocal and drum mics (providing you have those in your mix). The signal when you are playing will also sound warmer and more natural. I also find for vocal IEMs dropping 2-4khz a little can make things easier to pitch and less harsh.

 

[Pelao]

For me compressing/limiting the IEM signal is key. You will hear the audience in the gaps between songs better, solely through the audio picked up by vocal and drum mics (providing you have those in your mix). The signal when you are playing will also sound warmer and more natural. I also find for vocal IEMs dropping 2-4khz a little can make things easier to pitch and less harsh.

Big plus to dropping those harsh mids

 

[tbirdsp]

First off - I know all of this could be done by the FOH engineer with a digital board like the x32 - but I am kind of a control freak and like to have it right at MY hands

So - I picked up this little Yamaha mixer
Invalid Link Removed
I think for the next gig (Apr 18) I'm going to run things like this:
Bass as usual - DI out from GK MB Fusion 500 head to input 1 on the PSM200 transmitter, through jack to FOH.
Feed from the FOH board for monitors - into channel 2 of the Yamaha MG06X
AT 2020 condenser mic for ambient sound into channel 1 of the MG06X, probably with 80hz HPF engaged.
Output of mixer into input 2 on the PSM 200 transmitter.
I can even add a little reverb with the mixer if desired.

Where do you guys think I should place/aim the mic? I want to pick up some of the stage volume and the audience, but probably as little of my bass as possible (I still run a cab on stage for "feel" - although at a low volume)

 

[s0c9]

First off - I know all of this could be done by the FOH engineer with a digital board like the x32 - but I am kind of a control freak and like to have it right at MY hands

So - I picked up this little Yamaha mixer
Invalid Link Removed
I think for the next gig (Apr 18) I'm going to run things like this:
Bass as usual - DI out from GK MB Fusion 500 head to input 1 on the PSM200 transmitter, through jack to FOH.
Feed from the FOH board for monitors - into channel 2 of the Yamaha MG06X
AT 2020 condenser mic for ambient sound into channel 1 of the MG06X, probably with 80hz HPF engaged.
Output of mixer into input 2 on the PSM 200 transmitter.
I can even add a little reverb with the mixer if desired.

Where do you guys think I should place/aim the mic? I want to pick up some of the stage volume and the audience, but probably as little of my bass as possible (I still run a cab on stage for "feel" - although at a low volume)

Lots of pieces parts in that config... and IME overly complex, but looks like it would work. Been there done that with similar configs (versions) years ago.. and troubleshooting it when there was an issue was a REAL PITA. S'why I pushed for a digital console (band didn't want to use my Presonus 16.4.2 and decided on the X32 Producer) when we decided to go all IEM and dump the old Mackie console.
Now, the X32 + iPad(s) controls all.... simple interface, rackmounted IEM transmitters/mic receivers, permanently connected to XLR outs/ins. Power up and go. Keep last IEM mix or adjust with iPad - same for FOH..
That said, we DO play 6-8 gigs a month.. both with our own PA and house systems so we're looking to max simplicity and setup time! Very simple.. works well, and well worth the $$ and convenience IME. There's something to be said for the K.I.S.S principle!

You're still going to get a mono blend in the PSM, but I'd place the ambient mic near (and parallel to, or just behind) the speaker stack pointing out toward the audience.
You'll get PA bleed, crowd noise, and the mic will be "out of the way" of most things going on ...

 

[tbirdsp]

Yeah I know it's too complex - but our sound guy is hired out - I don't deal with any of his stuff - so I don't have that much to set up.
I have some other uses for the little mixer, so if I set it up once and then sh!tcan the idea it no big deal
I need to get an iPad too, for a number of reasons.

 

[ggunn]

Yeah I know it's too complex - but our sound guy is hired out - I don't deal with any of his stuff - so I don't have that much to set up.

For a while I used IEMs in a band where I was the only one doing so. My gear took almost as long to set up as the PA did.

No matter, I loved the way it sounded to me - the same no matter where on stage I was - and my ears didn't ring at the end of the gig.

 

[tbirdsp]

I'm ALWAYS the first one at the gig besides the sound man, so I have time
Probably something to do with my 20 years in the military....

 

[SteveC]

This is what I'm talking about...you must use headphones to get the effect.

 

[Big_Daws]

i have used nice gated reverb to help on VOX(Vocals for non-sound techs)...sometimes a little to much is too much, and so its just finding the right level. it works pretty well, certainly not a replacement for ambient mics which the levels should be placed just beneath the levels of everything else!

typically placement is most common (or where i place, and have seen other tourning techs place) on left and right hand side of stage (yes 2 mics) right beside the speakers, or kinda underneath the stack, depending on the setup of your gig.

 

[SteveC]

typically placement is most common (or where i place, and have seen other tourning techs place) on left and right hand side of stage (yes 2 mics) right beside the speakers, or kinda underneath the stack, depending on the setup of your gig.

We're trying this now

 

[s0c9]

As I mentioned earlier.. we TRIED the ambient mic thing... we dropped them pretty quickly as we found it added unnecessary confusion into our IEM mix.. we not only picked up stage "ambience" but also LOUD audience members...
While I agree that we possibly did not set levels correctly, the ambient mics became a distraction (rather than a benefit) in the mix. That surprised us, and made us feel "not isolated enough" - if you get what I mean... the opposite of the intended effect.

We also found that once one gets used to the db cuts that the IEM's provide, we could actually talk/communicate pretty well without the ambient mics, so we dropped them.

As with all such topics, this is completely subjective and YMMV!

 

[SteveC]

This maybe?

JHS Colour Box

 

[SteveC]

Anyone use this to get the live cab sound in your IEM or even FOH sound when you don't use a stage amp?

Torpedo C.A.B. | Two Notes Audio Engineering

Expensive but seems like an option that could improve IEM and even FOH tone in those silent stage situations.

 

[semiprohooker]

We run three vocal mics across the front of the stage. On the Stage left and stage right stand we clamp some cheap pencil condensers and point them to the crowd. We link these two as a stereo track and add a little bit into each of our ears respectively. That's how we handle the isolated feeling. Also, we have a talkback mic on stage that is always on, not crazy loud, but on. Every now and then I feel like that guy helps me feel more "connected" too.

 

[SteveC]

We have ambient mics, we have a talkback, but they don't really give me what I'm looking for.

We're running a mono IEM mix right now. I think I could have a stereo mix if I wanted and I suppose that with some panning would help a bit. I think I'm a little more picky than most of the band and I don't want to be the only one demanding a stereo monitor mix and all that. That's why I thought if I could just get my bass sounding a little better. The vox and keys and stuff are fine. A little verb on my overall send would be nice maybe.

 

[s0c9]

We have ambient mics, we have a talkback, but they don't really give me what I'm looking for.

We're running a mono IEM mix right now. I think I could have a stereo mix if I wanted and I suppose that with some panning would help a bit. I think I'm a little more picky than most of the band and I don't want to be the only one demanding a stereo monitor mix and all that. That's why I thought if I could just get my bass sounding a little better. The vox and keys and stuff are fine. A little verb on my overall send would be nice maybe.

Which console/mixer are you using, and is this church or secular ?

 

[Rocksolid]

I run a Yamaha MG06 Mixer also.
Ch1 gets my Vocal mic via a splitter box at the base of my mic stand
Ch2 gets a Rode M3 over the drums for drums and ambient (such a great mic for this)
Ch3 gets my bass (line out from pedal board or amp)
Ch4 gets line from FOH (usually via parallel out from powered wedge on my side of stage)

 

[SteveC]

We are not stereo but could be. It would require some re-arranging of channels, some Y cables, but it is doable I guess. I'll have to see what we can do.

Someone I trust also said I could add some "presence" by using a DI that is less clean - like an Aguilar THDI. I may explore that as well as I wouldn't mind having a more "present" sound out of my GB combo sometimes, too. Maybe kill two birds...

Resurrection...

I believe I will have a stereo IEM feed on Sunday. Anxious to see how that improves the "presence" I am wanting. Still using the TU-2, MXR M87 and JDI. Westone UM-2 IEM's coming back via a Rolls PM50S. I'm hoping that will help the "ambient sound. I do mix in an ambient mic as well.

Still haven't found a drive effect I like to give me some of that "beef" yet. Haven't added a chorus/delay/verb or anything yet either. It takes ma a long time to make a move on some of this stuff.

 

[walterw]

We're running a mono IEM mix right now. I think I could have a stereo mix if I wanted

demand it! whatever it takes!

Resurrection...

I believe I will have a stereo IEM feed on Sunday. Anxious to see how that improves the "presence" I am wanting.

i don't want to go back to mono; i tried ambient mics for a while, and that was OK, but once i went stereo i kinda forgot about them, the soundguy stopped bothering and didn't miss them. i might try to talk my soundguy into throwing one back up again, but who knows...

the idea is not to recreate some kind of spatial representation of the band layout, but rather to just nudge everybody who isn't you over to one side or the other a little (not hard panned); this makes it easier to hear yourself without having to be way louder than everybody else in the mix.