Advice needed: Learning Chuck Rainey lines

[thedovewarlord]

Hi All -- I'm an experienced and dedicated player. I practice as often as time permits and when not on the instrument, I actively listen and practice mentally.

Recently, I was chatting with a friend who is a monster musician; plays guitar, bass and is a dynamite piano player (his first instrument). We grew up together and our musical tastes to this day still overlap. As players, when choosing a song to learn , he'd certainly pick the more intricate song in a band's catalog and pick it off, by ear top to tail. Me, I'd usually gravitate to a groovier/grieasier and get the intro, bits of the song and take it from there.

Now I play for many years with another group of friends, and we like to cover songs. Often challenging songs and I learn them top to tail. Some songs stick, some songs I'll always need to relearn. I'm more of in the moment improv or taking a riff and making it our own, but I love nailing a song just like anyone else.

Apologize for the long winded setup, but my friend above wants to visit and suggested I learn Josie and Kid Charlemagne. Sure (gulp). Chuck Rainey is like, well, a master.

When I play my bass, I mainly create beat or dial-up a drum groove on YouTube and develop my own grooves. I'm pretty creative at making tunes, I'm self motivated to continuously learn more theory, styles, rhythms so getting someone's feel or grooving along, I can do that but playing other's note for note just not my strong suit when it's organic. I found some guy playing along to Josie (note for note) and I can't even get much past the first verse.

Any advice on this? Is there an easier or more approachable line of his I can work on to get some confidence and idea of his vocabulary. What approach worked for someone else with similar strengths and weaknesses?

 

[Les Fret]

Get the chord charts of the song and study intricate Motown bass lines, like Jamerson for example. That will help you with Chuck Rainey like lines over the chord charts I think.

 

[thedovewarlord]

Hopefully this doesn't sound naive - I do understand it's much better to understand the theory and the chord changes vs learning note for note, but in the case of these songs, it seems like any variation or not playing exactly what Chuck Raney played, would seem off. I have this same blocker when it comes to learning John Paul Jones' stuff also. Maybe that's my problem also.

How do people learn all these notes with such unique phrasing & rhythmic variations?

 

[Wannabebass]

I’m sure you’ll get better advice from those here that are wiser than me but….. I try to get a transcription for starters, and when I can’t play everything that the original artist is playing (which is most of the time) I just try for the “feel”. How much of the original bassist’s “feel” you have captured will always be subjective, but I think this is a reasonable approach. I also should have first asked if it’s the actual technique (speed, note choices, etc) that you struggle with learning or just memorizing the line, cause that’s definitely 2 different problems! In my inexperienced mind, nailing a specific bassist’s line on a tune is sort of an internal goal that probably only matters to you. Learning an acceptable, correct and grooving line for a song you play with your band seems like a more important goal (respectfully).
Cheers

 

[thedovewarlord]

I’m sure you’ll get better advice from those here that are wiser than me but….. I try to get a transcription for starters, and when I can’t play everything that the original artist is playing (which is most of the time) I just try for the “feel”. How much of the original bassist’s “feel” you have captured will always be subjective, but I think this is a reasonable approach. I also should have first asked if it’s the actual technique (speed, note choices, etc) that you struggle with learning or just memorizing the line, cause that’s definitely 2 different problems! In my inexperienced mind, nailing a specific bassist’s line on a tune is sort of an internal goal that probably only matters to you. Learning an acceptable, correct and grooving line for a song you play with your band seems like a more important goal (respectfully).
Cheers

These songs 90% of it is memorization, sometimes I have trouble getting the phrasing and timing. I'd like to get to an acceptable level and not exactly note for note (though I'm still curious how people do that!)

 

[Wannabebass]

These songs 90% of it is memorization, sometimes I have trouble getting the phrasing and timing. I'd like to get to an acceptable level and not exactly note for note (though I'm still curious how people do that!)

Understood! Keeping track of the little variations throughout the song would definitely be a challenge. I imagine having a score or even just a fake chord chart with notes would help, but yeah, im guessing it’s repetition until the variations start to have some sort of logical order. I struggle with the same thing on harp. The study songs are Anywhere from 6-10 verses of a 12 bar blues which ends up being basically 6-10 12 bar solo’s. Keeping track of each verse and not combining licks between verses is a challenge! Good luck!

 

[thedovewarlord]

thank

Understood! Keeping track of the little variations throughout the song would definitely be a challenge. I imagine having a score or even just a fake chord chart with notes would help, but yeah, im guessing it’s repetition until the variations start to have some sort of logical order. I struggle with the same thing on harp. The study songs are Anywhere from 6-10 verses of a 12 bar blues which ends up being basically 6-10 12 bar solo’s. Keeping track of each verse and not combining licks between verses is a challenge! Good luck!

Thank you for taking the time and explaining your method.

 

[buldog5151bass]

Only way I was ever able to approach doing justice to Kid Charlemagne start3d with reading from sheet music. Ax I have said befor3, Chuck Rainey is a bad man, and I mean that as a major compliment.

 

[jchrisk1]

Josie is a fun song to play. I learned it one section at a time, sometimes breaking it down into smaller chunks when necessary. You may need to break it down to one measure at a time, or even less, before you get it down. Worth the time and effort IMO. Chuck Rainey is great!

 

[Carl Hillman]

How do people learn all these notes with such unique phrasing & rhythmic variations?

Back in the day, I learned Kid Charlemagne by dropping and lifting the needle on the album over and over and over. It took some time, but it made me a better player.

Now, my learning process is, listen to it until I can sing it accurately, then write it down. Then use the paper for reference when memorizing it on bass.

(I'd suggest starting with Josie, as it may be a tad easier.)

 

[thedovewarlord]

I remember the days of learning from records and cassettes, we did what we needed to do and probably why all I really did was get the gist and only the more intriguing portions of the songs. We didn't have isolated tracks or tabs. Songbooks were pretty terrible, like some Mel Bay's version of Led Zeppelin Whole lotta love would be the vocal melody (close) and a diagram of an open E chord. Even the lyrics were sketchy.

I am starting with Josie. Singing it, now that is something I have not tried, I'm giving that a shot.

 

[chris_b]

. . . . my friend above wants to visit and suggested I learn Josie and Kid Charlemagne. Sure (gulp). Chuck Rainey is like, well, a master. . . . Any advice on this?

I had a brief look and there are a few Chuck Rainey videos out there, including isolated Josie and Kid Charlemagne videos. Study them. I think CR is a feel player, a groove monster rather than a super technician. So his notes should be pretty straightforward to get, then you just need to spend as long as it takes learning how to string them together in the right way.

 

[thedovewarlord]

I had a brief look and there are a few Chuck Rainey videos out there, including isolated Josie and Kid Charlemagne videos. Study them. I think CR is a feel player, a groove monster rather than a super technician. So his notes should be pretty straightforward to get, then you just need to spend as long as it takes learning how to string them together in the right way.

Thank you for the advice and encouragement @chris_b !

 

[Groove Doctor]

Memorising hundreds of simpler bass lines from other easier songs has really helped develop my “memorisation muscles”.

Also, it develops your ear to hear the nuances of the original line and how the fit in context with the rest of the band when performing them. If the other players you played with were only ever ‘near enough, good enough’ players and never compelled you to play the exact bass lines, weep.., then you have missed out on this crucial team-learning process.

To start doing with CR lines, without that solid foundation, will seem near impossible. Especially if the other players aren’t performing exactly as recorded.

One drummer I play with learns songs note-perfect and that’s why he aske me to play in certain projects with him. Exact bass lines are critical for those tribute bands.

Another drummer…..he doesn’t even play drums between gigs & has never played a song the same way twice.