Advise on scales and improvising.

[Groove Master]

Not a fan of scalar playing. Always sounds like they're running scales. I like chordal playing, where you use the chord notes to decide what to play. Doesn't mean you stick only with the chord notes, but you use them as the impetus for your improvs. That's why when people ask me what my favorite scales are, I always reply, "The chromatic scale."

Playing scales and playing in the scale are 2 different things. Also playing in the scale doesn't mean you cannot use chromaticism in my book. It helps emphases the good tones ;-)

 

[Groove Master]

Hello you all. I am new to the forum. I was wondering if anyone had any advice on what scales to learn for improvising? I would like to know how someone knows what to play if they have never played a certain song but they know what key its played in. Thank you for your help in advance.

Actually the great ones play in the key of the tune. It's that simple.

 

[JimmyM]

Playing scales and playing in the scale are 2 different things. Also playing in the scale doesn't mean you cannot use chromaticism in my book. It helps emphases the good tones ;-)

While true, been my experience that very few can delineate the difference

 

[mambo4]

I would like to know how someone knows what to play if they have never played a certain song but they know what key its played in.

Actually the great ones play in the key of the tune. It's that simple.

Well, yes,the great ones play in the key of the tune.
But maybe it's not quite that simple.

When an effective improviser is handed a new tune, and told the key:
They have learned which chords compromise comprise the key (I ii iii VI V7 VI vii - or the minor equivalent)
They have learned who to spell those chord tones
They have learned the sound of many common chord progression and are able to intuit upcoming changes
They have learned a large enough vocabulary of lines and phrases
and how they can apply to a key center or what chord(s) they support
to apply that vocabulary to the chord changes they hear.

worth mentioning that part of that large vocabulary includes chromatic choices, secondary dominants, borrowed chords, substitutions and other things that are not necessarily "in the key" of a given tune. (Blues being a prime example)

 

[Groove Master]

But maybe it's not quite that simple.

I'm not saying it's simple to do that especially the way they do it but it's a very common approach that is too overlooked these days imo.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

which chords compromise the key

Sorry, lost in translation.
Comprise or Compromise?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I like chordal playing

A true bass player's statement.

 

[Koshchei]

Hello you all. I am new to the forum. I was wondering if anyone had any advice on what scales to learn for improvising? I would like to know how someone knows what to play if they have never played a certain song but they know what key its played in. Thank you for your help in advance.

- Major in every position (as an added bonus, you get all the associated modes for free)
- Melodic minor and associated modes
- Harmonic minor and associated modes

Start with chord tones, then work your way up to spread triads and then more interesting voicings.

 

[Malcolm35]

- Major in every position (as an added bonus, you get all the associated modes for free)
- Melodic minor and associated modes
- Harmonic minor and associated modes
Start with chord tones, then work your way up to spread triads and then more interesting voicings.

That's it! Yes to start with chord tones and then add "stuff" to them. What stuff? Chromatic or diatonic walks, to the next chord. Then secondary dominants (R-3-5-X) with X being the secondary dominant (dominant V of the chord you are moving to) into your bag of tricks.

That should keep you busy for a couple of years. Will there be more? Sure.

Have fun.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Yes to start with chord tones

Just a few notes on "improvisation" per/by some improvisation teachers/specialist.
1. Try not to play Root or Fifth because the bass is (most probably/usually) playing.
2. Try not to start your "solo"/improvisation on the Root note.

how someone knows what to play if they have never played a certain song but they know what key its played in

In short.

There is a "mechanical" (chord-based various patterns - starting with four-note groupins) approach taught by Jerry Bergonzi and others.

Otherwise, it all depends on one's ability/knowledge to use ever-expanding melodic/harmonic/rhythmic/compositional/etc. devices (plus, various chromatic embellishments between scale steps), based on one's particular technical (like ghosted notes, dampened open strings, percussive right hand articulations, glissandos, etc. - other technical devices) capabilities, plus the never ending MUSICAL vocabulary - melodic vocabulary, harmonic vocabulary, compositional vocabulary, etc...

P.S. Most probably, some knowledge of the term "Phrase/s (Melodic)" is required.

P.S. 2. I have not seen any comment that mentions anything about RHYTHM, its importance to the IMPROVISATION.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I'm not saying it's simple to do that especially the way they do it but it's a very common approach that is too overlooked these days imo.

Absolutely. If you analyze a Jimmy Haslip solo, you'll find that it's 99% diatonic to the key. and most the time during the solos, the Yellowjackets just vamp on a key center then maybe move it up a minor third then do the same thing - and Jimmy sounds awesome. He might throw in like one note (literally) that's not diatonic.

If you listen to a lot of the new guys, like Felix Pastorius or Hadrien Feraud, those cats play like every note in the universe. I don't think it's necessary and after awhile it gets on my nerves. But I can listen to Haslip all day everyday. Everybody loves Lester Young's playing and his solos are like 100% diatonic to the key.

So you can overthink it and make it weird and hard, or you can choose to be not so weird and not make it so hard and it will still be beautiful. It's all about the sentiment you are trying to convey. The notes are the least important aspect of soloing.

 

[Groove Master]

Absolutely. If you analyze a Jimmy Haslip solo, you'll find that it's 99% diatonic to the key. and most the time during the solos, the Yellowjackets just vamp on a key center then maybe move it up a minor third then do the same thing - and Jimmy sounds awesome. He might throw in like one note (literally) that's not diatonic.

If you listen to a lot of the new guys, like Felix Pastorius or Hadrien Feraud, those cats play like every note in the universe. I don't think it's necessary and after awhile it gets on my nerves. But I can listen to Haslip all day everyday. Everybody loves Lester Young's playing and his solos are like 100% diatonic to the key.

So you can overthink it and make it weird and hard, or you can choose to be not so weird and not make it so hard and it will still be beautiful. It's all about the sentiment you are trying to convey. The notes are the least important aspect of soloing.

Wow great example here with Jimmy Haslip. He is one of the best at it all instruments included.

 

[Spin Doctor]

There is a "mechanical" (chord-based various patterns - starting with four-note groupins) approach taught by Jerry Bergonzi and others.

Hmm, well... Coltrane played in 4 note patterns all the time. Where do you think Bergonzi got the idea? He didn't come up with it. He just codified what Coltrane created. So if you're gonna try and call Coltrane mechanical, then I think you may have already lost a good bit of musical perspective.

Anyway, when you speak, you speak using words made from letters in patterns. That's what language is. It's not random letters. Speech has a certain pacing, a certain flow that is of the idiom. The exact same thing applies to music and improvisation. It's not random notes. Whether or not you understand the language isn't a problem with the language... the problem lies with the individual and not having studied it. A child has few language patterns. Martin Luther King had hundreds of thousands.

There is NO language on the planet that's random. Like Swahili sounds random to me. Of course, I know for a fact that it's not. It's how you arrange the patterns that makes it beautiful or not. It's not about scales OR chord tones OR Rhythm. It's NEVER one thing or another. It's all of it, all the time.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Wow great example here with Jimmy Haslip. He is one of the best at it all instruments included.

Big Haslip fan here too.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

It's not about scales OR chord tones OR Rhythm. It's NEVER one thing or another. It's all of it, all the time.

QFT.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Coltrane created. So if you're gonna try and call Coltrane mechanical, then I think you may have already lost a good bit of musical perspective.

I don't want to start any discussion about Coltrane's "mechanical playing".

For the beginners, let's try to figure out WHEN this/that "mechanical" pattern becomes a beautiful musical phrase.
What is the cause of that "conversion"?

 

[Spin Doctor]

...What is the cause of that "conversion"?

Experience.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Experience.

Yes.
Now, we are talking.
As I've mentioned before, conversion is based on the
"ever-expanding melodic/harmonic/rhythmic/compositional/etc. devices (plus, various chromatic embellishments between scale steps), based on one's particular technical (like ghosted notes, dampened open strings, percussive right hand articulations, glissandos, etc. - other technical devices) capabilities, plus the never ending MUSICAL vocabulary - melodic vocabulary, harmonic vocabulary, compositional vocabulary, etc..."

For beginners about Coltrane's improvisation:

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[Spin Doctor]

Yes.
Now, we are talking.
As I've mentioned before, conversion is based on the
"ever-expanding melodic/harmonic/rhythmic/compositional/etc. devices (plus, various chromatic embellishments between scale steps), based on one's particular technical (like ghosted notes, dampened open strings, percussive right hand articulations, glissandos, etc. - other technical devices) capabilities, plus the never ending MUSICAL vocabulary - melodic vocabulary, harmonic vocabulary, compositional vocabulary, etc..."

For beginners about Coltrane's improvisation:

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From your link:

"In this first phrase, and all the other phrases we'll look at, he's structuring each 4 note group by using whole-steps, major thirds, and tritones to separate them – these are all the intervals within a whole-tone scale, likely not a coincidence."

Patterns... In 4 note groupings... It's not random.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Where do you think Bergonzi got the idea?

Patterns... In 4 note groupings...

An example of Bergonzi's "mechanical" permutation.