Double Bass AEA KU5A

[Kristian]

Did anyone try this mic on doublebass yet?
I’m thinking of getting this or a Schoeps with an mk41 capsule. Thoughts?
Right now I’m using a rode nt5 and it has been working very good but I guess I would get even better results with one of these mics...

 

[AGCurry]

For recording or for live music?

My AEA experience is that I own two R84 and one R44. They are great microphones, and I trust that the KU5A is great as well. I would like to try one for vocals, but I already have some wonderful vocal mics.

AEA seems to be emphasizing two things with this mic: First, its supercardioid pickup pattern, and second, its durability. There is ONE reason to use a supercardioid mic: Rejection of unwanted sound and feedback. Is that why you are looking at supercardioids?

Have you seen this review of the KU5A? It's good.

 

[Ric Vice]

From what I've read and heard a supercardioid mic like the Schoeps CMC1/MK46 is ideal for recording and playing live concerts. They are very expensive Larry Grenadier has used one for many years.

 

[Kristian]

I’m planning to use them for both. People seem very happy using the mt41 for recording as well.

 

[AGCurry]

From what I've read and heard a supercardioid mic like the Schoeps CMC1/MK46 is ideal for recording and playing live concerts. They are very expensive Larry Grenadier has used one for many years.

I have to amend my statement above: Sometimes there is another reason to use a directional microphone, and that reason is that you like how the mic colors the sound it hears. I have no doubt that the Schoeps is a great mic and that there are many recordings where it's used to good effect on double bass. The point I make is that any directional mic will color the sound; sometimes that's good, and sometimes not. So it comes down to whether you like the color.

 

[Kristian]

So, I’ve found another one that looks very promising. This one:
https://austrian.audio/oc818/
I’ll go to a studio next week to try it out.
Anyone tried/heard of it?

 

[Ric Vice]

I have to amend my statement above: Sometimes there is another reason to use a directional microphone, and that reason is that you like how the mic colors the sound it hears. I have no doubt that the Schoeps is a great mic and that there are many recordings where it's used to good effect on double bass. The point I make is that any directional mic will color the sound; sometimes that's good, and sometimes not. So it comes down to whether you like the color.

That's definitely an issue, especially in a live setting. It seems like it's always a trade off between that full rich sound you get with a large diaphragm and the isolation that's required

for live performance. My solution was to purchase the Remic 5400 (Red) for some recording (we used it in conjunction with an AKG directional mic at the Tuhill Auditorium) and the Remic 5400 LB (Green) for live performance. When I do recordings in my meager home setup I use a Line Audio CM3 or CM4's

I'm not one to invest a great deal of time in sorting out all the available choices for recording. Just my take.

 

[AGCurry]

I'm not one to invest a great deal of time in sorting out all the available choices for recording. Just my take.

I'm with you. A reasonably-good mic placed correctly - that's it, really. Oh ... and good playing.

 

[Ric Vice]

I'm with you. A reasonably-good mic placed correctly - that's it, really. Oh ... and good playing.

Absolutely by the way here's the pickup patterns for the Remic Red and Remic Green

These diagrams are for violin, but it's easy to just "stand them up" to get the pickup pattern for Double Bass.

 

[Wasnex]

I haven't used either. Long ago I used Schoeps CMC6 with MK4 and MK6 capsules...I remember mostly close mic'ing grand pianos, but I am sure I used them for lot's of stuff. My memory was they were fairly transparent but somewhat clinical, and perhaps a bit warm. Not really what I would call a flattering mic, but very desirable for acoustic instruments when you wanted a fairly accurate sound that was not hyped or polished in any way.

I would think comparing the the AEA KU5A to the Schoeps CMC6 MK41 would be about like comparing apples to oranges. Both are supercard, but the response plots are drastically different.

KU5As Response Plot

Seems the choice is between one mic that is very flat and another that is very contoured.

AEA does have an article with a short video on recording bass with the KU5A. https://www.aearibbonmics.com/how-to-record-strings-cello-upright-bass-with-the-ku5a/ I suspect the peak at 2K would sound pretty nice for pizz, but it might be a liability if wanted to play with the bow.

Okay...I went down the rabbit with good intentions here and did not really find anything I can call definitive on the Schoeps with bass, so proceed at your own risk.

A couple of the people who mention the Schoeps MK41 bring up Larry Grenadier. He is using a spaced pair of mics in this video that are the right size and color, and look like they have Schoeps gold trim and logo. I can't say for sure if they are Schoeps CMC641, but they certainly could be.

It looks like there is large diaphragm of some sort aimed at the F hole as well, so there is no telling what we are hearing...but the bass does sound nice IMHO.

I found and YouTube interview where Larry Grenadier mentioned the mic technique he uses for live work. The Schoeps is very close to the bass pointed approximately at the sound post. He also mentioned using a pickup as required by the performing environment. He runs the mic through a Grace Felix which is sent through a powered monitor that is up in the air behind him.

This video looks more like the normal live mic setup he described in the interview.

 

[LaFaro01]

..A couple of the people who mention the Schoeps MK41 bring up Larry Grenadier. He is using a spaced pair of mics in this video that are the right size and color, and look like they have Schoeps gold trim and logo. I can't say for sure if they are Schoeps CMC641, but they certainly could be....

Here you can hear him talking himself about the mics

It seems to be pretty probable to be a Schoeps
and here you find a list of the gear for recording "Gleaners", containing also a Schoeps CMC6

 

[LaFaro01]

So, I’ve found another one that looks very promising. This one:
https://austrian.audio/oc818/
I’ll go to a studio next week to try it out.
Anyone tried/heard of it?

This is one of the rare mics, I want to check also for my basses. If I wouldn't be "happy owner" of a Brauner Phantom Classic and a Remic Red, I already would have checked it out..

 

[Wasnex]

Here you can hear him talking himself about the mics

It seems to be pretty probable to be a Schoeps
and here you find a list of the gear for recording "Gleaners", containing also a Schoeps CMC6

Yes that's the interview I pulled the info from . He says Schoeps CMC6 but does not identify the capsule. He calls it hypercardiod and then says its the most directional capsule they make. Pretty sure he means the supercardiod MK41 capsule. AFAIK Schoeps does not make a hypercardiod capsule.

 

[Ric Vice]

I’ve watched Larry perform with Brad Meldau twice here in St.Louis. It’s a Schoeps CMC6 MK 41. He’s brilliant and the Schoeps sounds great. There occasionally were times when he was overwhelmed by the cymbal wash from the drums.

 

[Wasnex]

I’ve watched Larry perform with Brad Meldau twice here in St.Louis. It’s a Schoeps CMC6 MK 41. He’s brilliant and the Schoeps sounds great. There occasionally were times when he was overwhelmed by the cymbal wash from the drums.

I have listened to several YouTube videos with different mics on Larry, and he always sounds about the same; in other words fabulous.

I do think the MK41's supercardiod pattern would be an advantage for live work though. Also from my own personal experience, if you can afford a Schoeps and are willing to spend the cash, I am absolutely confident you will love the mic if you want to capture the authentic sound of your instrument without any polish or hype.

Other Schoeps related products.

MK41V. Similar to MK41 but side address. A bit of a bump between 5khz and 15khz.

A side address capsule may be slightly better for close mic'ing upright, as it it would keep the body of the mic a bit closer to the instrument, where it is less likely to get bumped. As an example, I preferred using the side address MK6 capsules over the end address MK4s when mic'ing piano, because they were easier get into the available space. Unfortunately the rise in the high frequency response, would probably tend to make the problem with cymbal bleed even worse. This is one area where the rolled off highs of the KU5A could prove to be a real advantage.

Note: The MK6 is rare/discontinued and parts are not longer available to maintain them. It was a very cool multi-pattern capsule that used mechanical louvers to create the different polar patterns. I don't think it would be advisable to buy one as they were fairly fragile.

CCM41. This is a compact mic with Supercariod pattern. Schoeps says it's preferred for close mic'ing. Very flat frequency response like CK41

This is the version with a lemo connector CCM41L. The K5LU cables come in 5, 10 and 20m lenghts. Full compass sells the 5m for $84.

This is the version with a fixed cable CCM41U

The price of a single CMC641 and CCM41 are about the same, but I think the Lemo cable may be extra.

There is also a CCM41V. Frequency response more like CK41V.

Schoeps also makes two upright bass mounts that are designed to work with the CCM mics.

VA4 (rib mount)
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

VA5 (bridge mount)
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[Ric Vice]

As I mentioned above, both times I watched him play live, it was a CMC6 MK41 because we asked him what he was using that night. The CMC6 mK 41 cable costs $370.00 I know that because I checked into it. That's why I went with the Remic's

By the time you add the additional cost of the extension cable and the rib mount. to the cost of the CMC6 MK41 you're over $2000.00. By comparison the Remic is $700.00 sometimes less. The Schoeps is a phenomenal microphone if you can afford

it. In the current environment I just can't justify it's cost. We used the Remic DB 5400 (red) on a recording session in a 700 seat auditorium and it really sounded great.

 

[Wasnex]

As I mentioned above, both times I watched him play live, it was a CMC6 MK41 because we asked him what he was using that night. The CMC6 mK 41 cable costs $370.00 I know that because I checked into it. That's why I went with the Remic's

By the time you add the additional cost of the extension cable and the rib mount. to the cost of the CMC6 MK41 you're over $2000.00. By comparison the Remic is $700.00 sometimes less. The Schoeps is a phenomenal microphone if you can afford

it. In the current environment I just can't justify it's cost. We used the Remic DB 5400 (red) on a recording session in a 700 seat auditorium and it really sounded great.

I can't justify the cost of Schoeps for myself either. I bought a pair of Shure KSM141s which were designed to be Schoeps clones. That's probably as close as I will ever get. I have not used them recently.

I believe you are talking about the KC 5 active cable that can be inserted between the CMC6, which is an amplifier, and the MK41 capsule.

I believe the CCM41L compact mic with the K5LU would provide the same performance and functionality at a lower cost.

Is Larry using the KC 5? In the Fisherman Ball video with Larry Carlton (in post #10), it looks like he may be using a CMC641 with the MK41 capsule mounted directly to the CMC6. I am not certain he's using a Schoeps rib mount. It may be this one from the Goolihur Website
H-Clamp Light Upright Bass and Cello Microphone Mounts

Also he is using some sort of shock mount that could be the Schoeps ACA 53. The ACA 53 was about $163 but they appear to be discontinued. I wonder if a Shure A55M would work ($22)?

The Schoeps stuff is really nice, but even if I bought the mic, I would probably save a few pennies where I could on accessories. The Schoeps stereo bar my organization had is the nicest I have ever used, and also the most expensive (currently $525). Unfortunately it was also a bit fragile.

 

[bassmanbrent]

Is Larry using the KC 5? In the Fisherman Ball video with Larry Carlton (in post #10)

That's the great John Scofield.

 

[Wasnex]

That's the great John Scofield.

Thanks for the correction . Guess I confounded somethin' .