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again - how to "hear" chords, scales?

#21
Take a simple song you like and pick out the chords on the piano.
Sing each chord arpeggiated, slowly, and pick out the notes on the bass.
That will hopefully bridge your ear between being able to hear notes & intervals, to the point where you can hear chord textures and progressions.
 
#22
i have been playing music for a long time like over 5 years
Click to expand...

BIG GRIN!

Dude, 5 years is not a long time. Perhaps in this current culture where everything has to be NOW but over the course of a lifetime, it's not a long time. I've been playing 30 years and my ear is no where near where I'd like it to be but it's much better than many and not as good as others. Those who have started earlier and worked harder than me are better at it than me.

Be patient, continue to work at it. Listen and transcribe. Start with simple three chord songs with basic melodies and then get more complex as you progress. When you get to difficult sections, work those spots out. Slow them down in Audacity. Isolate the things that you're having a hard time with and work on those areas in particular.

Find an instructor with a monster ear and pay him to work with you if you are having problems working this out on your own.

You can learn this just like everyone else that has. Keep at it!
 
#23
I had this type of freak out moment yesterday--a guitarist asked if I knew how to follow and all I could say was "Not well". Fortunately, he was patient like many of the seasoned musicians I've sat with to learn this awesome past time.

I haven't been playing very long but the more I stopped stressing on it, the better I found myself improvising with others.

From the start I vocalized/formalized what I wanted to play or what sound good in the time. From there is was fox and hound. Once I found a good start, the process started all over again. Later down the line I put in into perspective in terms of theory and notation. Long after the session I realize "OOOHH! That makes sense as to why it sounded good" or "it would have sounded better this way. Next time, for sure."

This much I've come to realize; after playing with the same people once and over, I started to be able to read up to or feel what the others had in mind--especially since I substituted a short of vocal example or expectation to them from the beginning.
 
#25
I think you are doing all the right things. The Rollins solo was better than a lot of people ca do, that's for sure. Did you write it out in musical notation? That can give you a deeper understanding. Also, go back and learn the bass part to that song, and write that out. That should give you some insight into the harmony of the song. Find a chord chart for the song and follow along while looking at your bass transcription. Then do the same thing with another tune, and another.

Also jam with friends without calling out songs, chords, keys or anything. Just start playing, and don't worry about wrong notes, just listen! If you have open minded friends to play with you can get a lot out of exploration like that.

And play along with radio and tv, that's always a good way to connect ear to hands.

I think a lot of this will eventually click with you, you are already doing well, just don't stop learning.
 
#26
Here's a simple suggestion, FWIW:
Start with some simple tunes and listen to see if you can hear the root movement of the changes. Use your bass and see if you can sketch out the tune. Then once you have the roots, figure out whether the 3rd is minor or major. Just play the third along with each change, one will sound right one will sound bad (typically). Then play double stops, root/3rd along with the changes. If you do this a bunch you should be able to hear the majors and minors without having to check them. Now you're off and running.

Hope this is useful.

Jim
 
#27
You need to step back a minute and think more like a musician and less like strictly a bass player.

Spend 10 minutes a day on this: http://www.miles.be/ It's free.

Pick a song that you're fairly familiar with like "Autumn Leaves" and learn to play the chord progression on bass even if you only use double stop major and minor tenths. If you're comfortable enough then try to get the seventh in there too. Don't cheat on less common chords like a minor chord with a flat five. Just figure out a way to play the chord so that you can get the chord quality in your ear and contiue with the chord progression of the tune. As you get more comfortable imagine the melody in your head as your playing the chord progression. Or better yet..sing it. I've found that the intervals that I've had the most trouble hearing are the one that I have the most trouble singing.

Once you are comfortable then reverse the process and play the melody while you run the chords through your head. Have patience with yourself and just spend a little time on the process daily but be consistent. Challenge yourself to memorize a little more each day. If you stick with it you'll find that you have memorized the tune and you'll have a better understanding why the chord progression works and resolves. Plus you'll have a better feel of how the melody is related to the chord progression. You won't be thrown off by someone playing substituted chords because you'll have a better aural understanding of where it's coming from and where it's headed.

When it's time for you to solo you'll have both the melody and chord progression to draw on. Then it's up to you to decide how and where to use either and how to connect them.

The next step is transcribing.
 
#28
Thanks for that link, it's a great site! I went through some of the Ear Trainer exercises and it was very revealing and helpful.

And OP, to reiterate what Art said above, 5 years is nothing... You transcribed a Sonny Rollins solo, a lot of "good" players can't do that after 20 years of playing. You hear better than you think. What you are reacting to is your own dissatisfaction with your current skills. That's a GOOD thing, because it will motivate you to improve.

Also as mentioned, get a teacher who knows about ear training.

Do you play or listen to Indian classical music? It doesn't really have harmony, but playing and identifying tones based on a tonic drone is great ear training within a key.
 
#32
Dude, you nailed that solo, you've definitely got the skills. You just need to keep shedding until your raw talent becomes more refined. Your technique is great too, much better than mine. You can check out some of my youtube vids linked in my profile to see some of my transcriptions.

I'm kinda at the same level as you, I can copy stuff, but I don't know the what or why behind it. It just like painting by numbers for me at this point. That's why I started taking lessons. I'm really into jazz so I found a good jazz instructor in my area. You might want to consider going that route while continuing the ear training in order to increase your knowledge.
 
#33
bassinplace said:
Dude, you nailed that solo, you've definitely got the skills. You just need to keep shedding until your raw talent becomes more refined. Your technique is great too, much better than mine. You can check out some of my youtube vids linked in my profile to see some of my transcriptions.

I'm kinda at the same level as you, I can copy stuff, but I don't know the what or why behind it. It just like painting by numbers for me at this point. That's why I started taking lessons. I'm really into jazz so I found a good jazz instructor in my area. You might want to consider going that route while continuing the ear training in order to increase your knowledge.
Click to expand...

Thanks! But That's the trouble, i had to sit down and get the smallest bit of each phrase note by note by slowing it infinitely and running each bit over and again till i got it. I cant do that when playing with other guys when i might have to double up on a melody or something and i will have to take forever to get it down
Us being musicians we should be able to copy others in real time u know. I guess u have to stop being a bass player and learn all the melodies u can to get that going.
 
#34
varunkapahi said:
Thanks! But That's the trouble, i had to sit down and get the smallest bit of each phrase note by note by slowing it infinitely and running each bit over and again till i got it. I cant do that when playing with other guys when i might have to double up on a melody or something and i will have to take forever to get it down
Us being musicians we should be able to copy others in real time u know. I guess u have to stop being a bass player and learn all the melodies u can to get that going.
Click to expand...

Well, if you're looking at it that way, piano would be a good area to study. Many of the transcriptions I did on my yt page took me a good deal of time and a lot of sweat to get worked out. I still do it every week and it gets easier all the time and my ability to improvise also gets better little by little.

It doesn't come easy to the majority of people. You've just gotta want it enough to put the work in. Just like any problem or task, you break it down into small manageable bits at a time. The thing with learning music is it takes a lifetime and you still won't have learned all of the things there are to know. If you keep at it though, you will learn a lot. ;)
 
#35
varunkapahi said:
i had to sit down and get the smallest bit of each phrase note by note by slowing it infinitely and running each bit over and again till i got it. I cant do that when playing with other guys when i might have to double up on a melody or something and i will have to take forever to get it down
Us being musicians we should be able to copy others in real time u know.
Click to expand...
Doing it bit by bit is how you learn. Do that a bunch more times, and you will be amazed how good your realtime skills get.

One thing to do is transcribe a BUNCH of songs in the genre that you play (including all the fills and variations). I'm assuming you are not normally a straight-ahead jazz player. If you play pop, transcribe both bassline and melody from 50 pop tunes. Then, try to play all those tunes in a few different keys (say, three keys per tune). You will start to see the repeated figures that are used over and over in that genre. Once you can see that, you will recognize those phrases in other songs, and that will make it easier to play things back as soon has you hear them.

One of these days (if it hasn't happened already), you will do something in a jam that you think is stupid and easy. Somebody else will hear you and say "Wow!!! Why does that come so easily to him??? Why can't I do it???". And just like everybody else, the answer will be because you worked hard and earned those skills.

As a few people are implying, you are already doing well. Keep going, being dissatisfied with your current level is the mark of somebody who is constantly improving.
 
#36
THis is a skill that is learnable ... and takes lots of practice time and dedication to get good at..

I would recommend the groove workshop man; the music always tells you automatically what to play if you listen..
 
#37
smeet said:
I think you are doing all the right things. The Rollins solo was better than a lot of people ca do, that's for sure. Did you write it out in musical notation? That can give you a deeper understanding. Also, go back and learn the bass part to that song, and write that out. That should give you some insight into the harmony of the song. Find a chord chart for the song and follow along while looking at your bass transcription. Then do the same thing with another tune, and another.

Also jam with friends without calling out songs, chords, keys or anything. Just start playing, and don't worry about wrong notes, just listen! If you have open minded friends to play with you can get a lot out of exploration like that.

And play along with radio and tv, that's always a good way to connect ear to hands.

I think a lot of this will eventually click with you, you are already doing well, just don't stop learning.
Click to expand...

i didnt write it down, i just learned it as a "play along" of sorts back then now ive forgotten it all. when i couldnt do much with it i realised i need to put it in context with the harmony well now i might as well work on another tune like St. thomas and do it all the way this time with the understanding of chords and everything behind it
 
#38
I can't really add anything to the already great suggestions here, except that if your desire is greater than your discouragement, success will come in time. Measure your success by your accomplishments, not by your failures. Keep at it, and most of all.... enjoy yourself. It is, after all, why we do what we do.
 
#39
varunkapahi said:
ive been struggling with this for so long that i probably should just give up playing music and look for a job or something but for some reason i keep banging my head against this wall hoping ill make a break through, anywho here goes nothing..

so i dont know how most musicians "just hear" chord qualities, underlying modes/scales, can transcribe/play back melodies they hear and somehow i can't. Am sure not tone deaf! Maybe i used to be i've worked a long up way from there. Took some proper ear training classes and that helped A LOT but after a while it was not going in the direction i wanted it to, ie be able hear chords and melodies off hand so i can hear and play better.

i figure out all the music by ear but i have to really sit down and load up a song in audaicty and somehow break it down slow it down and get the bass lines down, even then i dont intuitively know the proper chords and the main melody and until i sit down and find those somehow. most people can just do that its so frustrating really!

but i cant sit down to figure out things when playing with others, especially in improv situations am just thrown out of the water.

now i have spent years practicing, scales and arpeggios and what not but somehow i have not "internalized" their in a way that i can recognize them when i hear them on a record in an unfamiliar way. i can even sing most of the scales/modes, arpeggios etc thanks to the ear training classes.

Also learned a huge load of harmony and theory etc so that helps me "guess" some stuff but i dont know how to "systematically" iron out this whole issue from the very basics of it? sorry about the long post but maybe you get me, so any ideas? how do i work on this?

how do i hear music in my head? how can my friends pickup an instrument and just figure out and play a song they heard on the radio once last week but i have to sit down with a computer and find every note one by one? this has been going on for far too long, ive gotten somewhat better at it but its either a hit or miss.

i think this is probably the tenth time am posting a similar thread or post, i try to explain myself better every time hoping to get some advice i can work on and get results.
Click to expand...

Try to hear keys/tonalities at first. Pretty much all chords progressions are based on the degrees of the mother scale or the momentary key; either the major scale or the minor harmonic scale.

Focus on the main degrees like I-IV-V or II-V-I.
That will help you to hear things.

Good luck
 

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