• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Al Dimeola is very angry

He sure sounds like one of those dudes to me.

Thanks for proving my point. You aren't hearing 80% of what's there if you truly think that. "Oh he plays fast, he must be a generic shredder". The guy is never resting on his laurels and just playing over simple 3 or 4 chord patterns. His compositions are pretty involved and interesting and CATCHY, and that is the real draw. The amazing playing just facilitates and adds to that. I mean, listen to the video above starting at 3:30. That is funky as hell. Dude wrote that at 20. And of course shredding didn't even really exist in his time, so if he sounds "generic" to your untrained ears, it's only because so many behind him tried to copy what he did. But that fusion era of the late 60s through mid/late 70s was an extremely fertile time for music when a TON of amazing interesting and creative stuff was being done. Elliot Smith clone #983 from 2017 is probably already forgotten about 3 weeks into 2018.

Most music of all eras is crap. Old people were saying "most modern music is crap" when Al's music was new.

That may be true, but maybe you're not knowledgeable enough to realize the ratios have vastly changed. I'm guessing you're either pretty young, or just very limited in what you listen to (or very temporal). Having 20% of mainstream music be awesome instead of 10% still means there was twice as much great mainstream music.

Can we get over the myth that skill on an instrument and complication in your music automatically makes it worth more?

Good thing I didn't say that.

How about the myth that it's in any way difficult to find good music?

I mean, if you mean "difficult" as in physically laborious, then maybe not. But I think it's difficult to find good music now because you have to wade through so much crap to find one good band, and guess what, since that band operates entirely on their own disposable income from their day jobs in most cases, they are good for maybe 1 or at most 2 albums, and then the realities of "real life" creep in, and they either break up or just otherwise take forever to put something else out. But I lived through the late 80s and early 90s, when MTV along with whatever else it was playing, would feed me a steady diet of great music. Radio too. It was an entirely passive experience, except trying to catch the end card or DJ announcement to find out what THAT was just now. I saw the Would? video precisely 1 time early in the morning as I was getting ready for school in 91 (I would eat my cereal and turn on MTV). After that I was hooked and knew AIC was a band to check out, which was cemented when the Them Bones video came out a few months later. Oh guess what else would get played at the same time? Temple of the Dog, Metallica, GnR, Nirvana, etc... Like damn near every band they would play either was or became a legendary band that we all still talk about today. If you didn't live through that or don't have the perceptual depth to appreciate it, you could never possibly understand. But I did, and I have the depth to understand that the 70s must've been EVEN CRAZIER, because the 60s and 70s weren't so much rebelling against what came before, as just expanding and exploring for the sake of exploration, adventure, and creativity that was just clearly in the air back then. Maybe they needed to Vietnam and Nixon to spur that free thinking and rejection of authority and arbitrary rules. Even though things today are demonstrably MUCH worse, I'm not sure that spirit is there in quite the same way, or at least not allowed or encouraged to flourish as it was then. The 90s were more of a reaction to the horrible aquanet metal stuff of poison and the like and the ubiquitous gated drums and sadly misused and maligned DX7, but also a sidechain continuation of the punk reveolution of the late 70s as well as some of the singer songwriter stuff from back then like Joni Mitchell, etc... (REM, etc...).

So maybe it's not "hard" if you don't consider listening intently to 1000 bands to find a handful of good ones "hard', but 25 or 50 years ago, you literally could not avoid finding new great bands. And you didn't have to avoid radio if you wanted to keep your sanity (well, some songs certainly got overplayed still, but most of what was played was at least good to begin with, before being worn out).

I mean, after a pretty solid 25+ years of pretty intensive and open minded musical exploration, I am STILL finding great stuff from the 60s and 70s that I hadn't gotten around to yet. It's literally an endless mine of treasure. Sure, today I find the occasional nugget, but to pretend it's the same as before is silly. And I am not averse to new music. I love stuff like Kimbra, Bent Knee, Mastodon, Foals, etc... But they largely stand tall in a sea of mediocrity that surrounds them.

it made me want to play devil's advocate a bit and ask what is ambition as it pertains to music?

Ambition is trying to do something interesting and different and not just retread stuff that's been done a million times before.

What's more ambitious though, trying to eek out every last shred of refinement in a relatively mature style of music, or forging new paths as many are doing in hip-hop and electronic music - plenty of which is quite good by the way if you dig beneath the surface, and in some cases even if you don't.

First of all, Al actually helped CREATE fusion as we know it. So as a 63 year old, I don't think he's to be expected to create more genres from scratch for our entertainment. So of course he continues to work more or less within the style he helped create, because that's where his creative instincts have lead him. I admittedly haven't kept up with some of his newer stuff (although I've seen him twice in the last few years and his playing is still excellent), the first 25 years of his career (which he's now 45 years into) has probably 15 albums or so of fairly varied material, ranging from blazing fusion like the majority of his first 2 or 3 albums, to many flamenco or tango inspired acoustic oriented pieces (the whole guitar trio thing, his Piazzolla stuff, World Sinfonia, etc...), to his more modern/contemporary jazz/world albums like Kiss My Axe and Flesh on Flesh, down to the completely introspective Cielo e Terra. So if one thinks Al is a "generic shredder", I can say with authority you haven't really listened.

As far as hiphop, there is some good stuff out there, surely. But the music is not ambitious by definition. Almost entirely, it consists of a 4 or 8 bar "beat" often with some sample of a hit song from THE 60s THROUGH THE 90s, married to a drum machine, with a guy rhyming over it. It's been that way for basically 35 years. Hiphop is nearly as old as fusion, and as near as I can tell, almost everyone in that field is still trying to reach what these 2 guys already did.





Ambitious career-wise sure. They almost fetishize "the hustle" (and there's probably some racial politics and history there beyond the scope of this conversation), but musically? Rarely that I've seen.
 
Better artist rep would have saved Jersey Al from spewing a pissy interview on the wrong day . . . . I know the feeling, but you know, the world moves on. And Al is like one of those rookies who plays on a winning Super Bowl team his first year in the league: After RTF when he was 19 (!), kinda hard to go up from there if you have a viewpoint like that.

But then again, if I had to live by something I said 15 years ago, I might feel quite differently today.
 
Consider me tricked, I suppose. I love his older works and tend to agree with the school of thought that today's commercially produced music in the States is mostly unfavorable, though I can be swayed at times.
I with you & consider me "tricked"...very early on, though, I was no fan of Dimeola as Return To Forever's guitarist. I may have preferred his early solo albums. Having Stanley, Jaco, & Antnony Jackson on those recordings didn't hurt.
Eventually, I realized if I was listening to '70s-era Jazz Fusion...I want balls-out, over-the-top playing. There is no substitute. YMMV.

This thread made me realize I need Slendido Hotel.
...oh, and Dimeola has a new album dropping next month.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jhengsman
I with you & consider me "tricked"...very early on, though, I was no fan of Dimeola as Return To Forever's guitarist. I may have preferred his early solo albums. Having Stanley, Jaco, & Antnony Jackson on those recordings didn't hurt.
Eventually, I realized if I was listening to '70s-era Jazz Fusion...I want balls-out, over-the-top playing. There is no substitute. YMMV.

This thread made me realize I need Slendido Hotel.
...oh, and Dimeola has a new album dropping next month.
Oh man. Just got through Splendido Hotel last week. It's something else!
 
He reminds me of a certain bass player who had trouble with the fact that he wasn't as "popular" as he thought he should be.
I think I know who...but I'm nice. That's all I will say about that.

Some here assume you are talking about Jaco.
Regarding Jaco's popularity...I will only add he was able to take a somewhat esoteric Jazz group from Jazz clubs into Rock arenas. Totally revered in Japan, too.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pacman
Trying to think of the title or melody of a single Al Dimeola song. Nope. I got nothing. Trying to picture what he looks like. Still nothing.

:D

But millions can recognize GnR, Duran Duran, Bruno Mars, The Beatles, and Maroon 5. Their songs are catchy and they appeal(ed) to the masses.

I prefer Baroque to Classical too because of its simple and beautiful melodies.

I prefer Yellowjackets to hardcore fusion because it establishes melodies I enjoy.

Sometimes (not always) a simple AC/DC jam gets it done over Rush or Yes when I just want to rock out.

Impressionist painters were super talented even though their paintings were less lifelike.

Sometimes Seinfeld is more entertaining than Schindler's List.

Sometimes I'm in the mood for a burger off my grill and not 75 ingredient all day in the kitchen chef prepared meals.

I appreciate all kinds of talent. But complex is not always better. Chastising the masses because they don't "get you" is a copout. If your music were entertaining and appealing to millions, then millions would clamor to see you, hear you and meet you.

Jam bands that have but a simple rough format and create 12 minute songs from almost nothing live are no less talented than fusion bands who play complex songs in Q flat minor diminished and 13/7 time signature to perfection.

(That being said, I enjoy some fusion, including Al's work with several acts and solo. Nothing personal, Al, old buddy.)
 
I think I know who...but I'm nice. That's all I will say about that.

Some here assume you are talking about Jaco.
Regarding Jaco's popularity...I will only add he was able to take a somewhat esoteric Jazz group from Jazz clubs into Rock arenas. Totally revered in Japan, too.
Still don't know who we are talking about, but three posts later and I'm still in the dark. Probably means I wasn't meant to find out. :D
 
Good thing I didn't say that

Not in so many words no.

So maybe it's not "hard" if you don't consider listening intently to 1000 bands to find a handful of good ones

That's your opinion. 1000 bad bands for a handful of good ones sounds like 80s rock to me but that's opinion.

But I lived through the late 80s and early 90s, when MTV along with whatever else it was playing, would feed me a steady diet of great music.

I lived it too. Nirvana came out my freshman year. People who grew up in the 70s and 80 thought our 90s music sucked. You first heard AIC on MTV? I heard Sea of Sorrow on the radio and Bush's Everything Zen on MTV. I also first heard Modest Mouse on Pandora and Amy McDonald on YouTube. I don't see what the huge difference is here aside from the medium. Or why one is supposed to be superior to the other or how this is a sign of better music. Never would have heard the Scottish Amy McDonald on St Louis radio though.

Radio too.

Radio is dying. It's not coming back. You will not find anything but early teenage pop and bro country there. I'm sorry.

I have the depth to understand

And our belief that today's music isn't just a sea of junk implies we have no depth? I understand just fine that great music is in every decade and I've made no arguments otherwise. Except that today's music is unfairly maligned by people who still listen to the same radio station they did 40 years ago We all know the historical events of the last 50 years and how those events plus the new technology available to musicians defined each generations music. I listen from Mozart to the latest releases. All on this apparently horribly complicated couple of apps that let me listen to a far, far wider variety of music than any radio station has ever provided.


It's a bit disturbing to me that at the ripe old age of 43 my age group has already started in on the pining for yesteryear and the rose colored glasses.
 
Thanks for proving my point. You aren't hearing 80% of what's there if you truly think that. "Oh he plays fast, he must be a generic shredder". The guy is never resting on his laurels and just playing over simple 3 or 4 chord patterns. His compositions are pretty involved and interesting and CATCHY, and that is the real draw. The amazing playing just facilitates and adds to that. I mean, listen to the video above starting at 3:30. That is funky as hell. Dude wrote that at 20. And of course shredding didn't even really exist in his time, so if he sounds "generic" to your untrained ears, it's only because so many behind him tried to copy what he did. But that fusion era of the late 60s through mid/late 70s was an extremely fertile time for music when a TON of amazing interesting and creative stuff was being done. Elliot Smith clone #983 from 2017 is probably already forgotten about 3 weeks into 2018.



That may be true, but maybe you're not knowledgeable enough to realize the ratios have vastly changed. I'm guessing you're either pretty young, or just very limited in what you listen to (or very temporal). Having 20% of mainstream music be awesome instead of 10% still means there was twice as much great mainstream music.



Good thing I didn't say that.



I mean, if you mean "difficult" as in physically laborious, then maybe not. But I think it's difficult to find good music now because you have to wade through so much crap to find one good band, and guess what, since that band operates entirely on their own disposable income from their day jobs in most cases, they are good for maybe 1 or at most 2 albums, and then the realities of "real life" creep in, and they either break up or just otherwise take forever to put something else out. But I lived through the late 80s and early 90s, when MTV along with whatever else it was playing, would feed me a steady diet of great music. Radio too. It was an entirely passive experience, except trying to catch the end card or DJ announcement to find out what THAT was just now. I saw the Would? video precisely 1 time early in the morning as I was getting ready for school in 91 (I would eat my cereal and turn on MTV). After that I was hooked and knew AIC was a band to check out, which was cemented when the Them Bones video came out a few months later. Oh guess what else would get played at the same time? Temple of the Dog, Metallica, GnR, Nirvana, etc... Like damn near every band they would play either was or became a legendary band that we all still talk about today. If you didn't live through that or don't have the perceptual depth to appreciate it, you could never possibly understand. But I did, and I have the depth to understand that the 70s must've been EVEN CRAZIER, because the 60s and 70s weren't so much rebelling against what came before, as just expanding and exploring for the sake of exploration, adventure, and creativity that was just clearly in the air back then. Maybe they needed to Vietnam and Nixon to spur that free thinking and rejection of authority and arbitrary rules. Even though things today are demonstrably MUCH worse, I'm not sure that spirit is there in quite the same way, or at least not allowed or encouraged to flourish as it was then. The 90s were more of a reaction to the horrible aquanet metal stuff of poison and the like and the ubiquitous gated drums and sadly misused and maligned DX7, but also a sidechain continuation of the punk reveolution of the late 70s as well as some of the singer songwriter stuff from back then like Joni Mitchell, etc... (REM, etc...).

So maybe it's not "hard" if you don't consider listening intently to 1000 bands to find a handful of good ones "hard', but 25 or 50 years ago, you literally could not avoid finding new great bands. And you didn't have to avoid radio if you wanted to keep your sanity (well, some songs certainly got overplayed still, but most of what was played was at least good to begin with, before being worn out).

I mean, after a pretty solid 25+ years of pretty intensive and open minded musical exploration, I am STILL finding great stuff from the 60s and 70s that I hadn't gotten around to yet. It's literally an endless mine of treasure. Sure, today I find the occasional nugget, but to pretend it's the same as before is silly. And I am not averse to new music. I love stuff like Kimbra, Bent Knee, Mastodon, Foals, etc... But they largely stand tall in a sea of mediocrity that surrounds them.



Ambition is trying to do something interesting and different and not just retread stuff that's been done a million times before.



First of all, Al actually helped CREATE fusion as we know it. So as a 63 year old, I don't think he's to be expected to create more genres from scratch for our entertainment. So of course he continues to work more or less within the style he helped create, because that's where his creative instincts have lead him. I admittedly haven't kept up with some of his newer stuff (although I've seen him twice in the last few years and his playing is still excellent), the first 25 years of his career (which he's now 45 years into) has probably 15 albums or so of fairly varied material, ranging from blazing fusion like the majority of his first 2 or 3 albums, to many flamenco or tango inspired acoustic oriented pieces (the whole guitar trio thing, his Piazzolla stuff, World Sinfonia, etc...), to his more modern/contemporary jazz/world albums like Kiss My Axe and Flesh on Flesh, down to the completely introspective Cielo e Terra. So if one thinks Al is a "generic shredder", I can say with authority you haven't really listened.

As far as hiphop, there is some good stuff out there, surely. But the music is not ambitious by definition. Almost entirely, it consists of a 4 or 8 bar "beat" often with some sample of a hit song from THE 60s THROUGH THE 90s, married to a drum machine, with a guy rhyming over it. It's been that way for basically 35 years. Hiphop is nearly as old as fusion, and as near as I can tell, almost everyone in that field is still trying to reach what these 2 guys already did.





Ambitious career-wise sure. They almost fetishize "the hustle" (and there's probably some racial politics and history there beyond the scope of this conversation), but musically? Rarely that I've seen.


Or maybe he just read the interview and based his opinions on the content? That’s what I did. I guess that must mean I’m either young or have a narrow view toward music. Like I said, it must suck being an aging virtuoso getting shoved to the side and packed firmly away into the back warehouse of music history by mumble rap, but people better get used to it. The real musicians will still get work. The rest will blame the kids on why they can’t.
 
So I'm almost 60 and a big fan of Dimeola's music and playing. I'm also father or 3 millennials including one daughter with serious guitar chops and huge love for music. I hate it when old guys make blanket statements about music today trashing kids in general. Curmudgeon Steve Miller really pissed me off when he dissed The Black Keys like they were nobody at the RNRHOF a few years back. Reality is there are huge numbers of kids right now valiantly making damn good rock music. Get out of your ivory tower Al and connect with the real world. You might learn something.