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Al Dimeola is very angry

This post stuck with me, and as I was thinking about it earlier this morning, it made me want to play devil's advocate a bit and ask what is ambition as it pertains to music?

One could feasibly sum up one side of this argument as: new music doesn't sound like the old music so I dismiss it. What's more ambitious though, trying to eek out every last shred of refinement in a relatively mature style of music, or forging new paths as many are doing in hip-hop and electronic music - plenty of which is quite good by the way if you dig beneath the surface, and in some cases even if you don't.

I'd argue that many rappers are nothing if not ambitious. :laugh:
Exactly. Ambitious doesn't necessarily mean "extremely technically challenging in terms of ability to move your fingers quickly." I would definitely call the works of bands like Boris and Sunn O))) ambitious.

Thanks for proving my point. You aren't hearing 80% of what's there if you truly think that. "Oh he plays fast, he must be a generic shredder". The guy is never resting on his laurels and just playing over simple 3 or 4 chord patterns. His compositions are pretty involved and interesting and CATCHY, and that is the real draw. The amazing playing just facilitates and adds to that. I mean, listen to the video above starting at 3:30. That is funky as hell. Dude wrote that at 20. And of course shredding didn't even really exist in his time, so if he sounds "generic" to your untrained ears, it's only because so many behind him tried to copy what he did. But that fusion era of the late 60s through mid/late 70s was an extremely fertile time for music when a TON of amazing interesting and creative stuff was being done. Elliot Smith clone #983 from 2017 is probably already forgotten about 3 weeks into 2018.



That may be true, but maybe you're not knowledgeable enough to realize the ratios have vastly changed. I'm guessing you're either pretty young, or just very limited in what you listen to (or very temporal). Having 20% of mainstream music be awesome instead of 10% still means there was twice as much great mainstream music.



Good thing I didn't say that.



I mean, if you mean "difficult" as in physically laborious, then maybe not. But I think it's difficult to find good music now because you have to wade through so much crap to find one good band, and guess what, since that band operates entirely on their own disposable income from their day jobs in most cases, they are good for maybe 1 or at most 2 albums, and then the realities of "real life" creep in, and they either break up or just otherwise take forever to put something else out. But I lived through the late 80s and early 90s, when MTV along with whatever else it was playing, would feed me a steady diet of great music. Radio too. It was an entirely passive experience, except trying to catch the end card or DJ announcement to find out what THAT was just now. I saw the Would? video precisely 1 time early in the morning as I was getting ready for school in 91 (I would eat my cereal and turn on MTV). After that I was hooked and knew AIC was a band to check out, which was cemented when the Them Bones video came out a few months later. Oh guess what else would get played at the same time? Temple of the Dog, Metallica, GnR, Nirvana, etc... Like damn near every band they would play either was or became a legendary band that we all still talk about today. If you didn't live through that or don't have the perceptual depth to appreciate it, you could never possibly understand. But I did, and I have the depth to understand that the 70s must've been EVEN CRAZIER, because the 60s and 70s weren't so much rebelling against what came before, as just expanding and exploring for the sake of exploration, adventure, and creativity that was just clearly in the air back then. Maybe they needed to Vietnam and Nixon to spur that free thinking and rejection of authority and arbitrary rules. Even though things today are demonstrably MUCH worse, I'm not sure that spirit is there in quite the same way, or at least not allowed or encouraged to flourish as it was then. The 90s were more of a reaction to the horrible aquanet metal stuff of poison and the like and the ubiquitous gated drums and sadly misused and maligned DX7, but also a sidechain continuation of the punk reveolution of the late 70s as well as some of the singer songwriter stuff from back then like Joni Mitchell, etc... (REM, etc...).

So maybe it's not "hard" if you don't consider listening intently to 1000 bands to find a handful of good ones "hard', but 25 or 50 years ago, you literally could not avoid finding new great bands. And you didn't have to avoid radio if you wanted to keep your sanity (well, some songs certainly got overplayed still, but most of what was played was at least good to begin with, before being worn out).

I mean, after a pretty solid 25+ years of pretty intensive and open minded musical exploration, I am STILL finding great stuff from the 60s and 70s that I hadn't gotten around to yet. It's literally an endless mine of treasure. Sure, today I find the occasional nugget, but to pretend it's the same as before is silly. And I am not averse to new music. I love stuff like Kimbra, Bent Knee, Mastodon, Foals, etc... But they largely stand tall in a sea of mediocrity that surrounds them.



Ambition is trying to do something interesting and different and not just retread stuff that's been done a million times before.



First of all, Al actually helped CREATE fusion as we know it. So as a 63 year old, I don't think he's to be expected to create more genres from scratch for our entertainment. So of course he continues to work more or less within the style he helped create, because that's where his creative instincts have lead him. I admittedly haven't kept up with some of his newer stuff (although I've seen him twice in the last few years and his playing is still excellent), the first 25 years of his career (which he's now 45 years into) has probably 15 albums or so of fairly varied material, ranging from blazing fusion like the majority of his first 2 or 3 albums, to many flamenco or tango inspired acoustic oriented pieces (the whole guitar trio thing, his Piazzolla stuff, World Sinfonia, etc...), to his more modern/contemporary jazz/world albums like Kiss My Axe and Flesh on Flesh, down to the completely introspective Cielo e Terra. So if one thinks Al is a "generic shredder", I can say with authority you haven't really listened.

As far as hiphop, there is some good stuff out there, surely. But the music is not ambitious by definition. Almost entirely, it consists of a 4 or 8 bar "beat" often with some sample of a hit song from THE 60s THROUGH THE 90s, married to a drum machine, with a guy rhyming over it. It's been that way for basically 35 years. Hiphop is nearly as old as fusion, and as near as I can tell, almost everyone in that field is still trying to reach what these 2 guys already did.





Ambitious career-wise sure. They almost fetishize "the hustle" (and there's probably some racial politics and history there beyond the scope of this conversation), but musically? Rarely that I've seen.

What a bunch of condescending, insulting hogwash.

Also I consider the 1980s to be even more of a musical desert than the current decade. An oasis here and there, of course, but few and far between. The vast majority of popular music from the time I find to be cringe-inducing.

Not in so many words no.



That's your opinion. 1000 bad bands for a handful of good ones sounds like 80s rock to me but that's opinion.



I lived it too. Nirvana came out my freshman year. People who grew up in the 70s and 80 thought our 90s music sucked. You first heard AIC on MTV? I heard Sea of Sorrow on the radio and Bush's Everything Zen on MTV. I also first heard Modest Mouse on Pandora and Amy McDonald on YouTube. I don't see what the huge difference is here aside from the medium. Or why one is supposed to be superior to the other or how this is a sign of better music. Never would have heard the Scottish Amy McDonald on St Louis radio though.



Radio is dying. It's not coming back. You will not find anything but early teenage pop and bro country there. I'm sorry.



And our belief that today's music isn't just a sea of junk implies we have no depth? I understand just fine that great music is in every decade and I've made no arguments otherwise. Except that today's music is unfairly maligned by people who still listen to the same radio station they did 40 years ago We all know the historical events of the last 50 years and how those events plus the new technology available to musicians defined each generations music. I listen from Mozart to the latest releases. All on this apparently horribly complicated couple of apps that let me listen to a far, far wider variety of music than any radio station has ever provided.


It's a bit disturbing to me that at the ripe old age of 43 my age group has already started in on the pining for yesteryear and the rose colored glasses.
Exactly. Radio is not where people who are actually into music find new music anymore. Neither is MTV. Even people who are just casual listeners, at least of my generation, primarily listen to Pandora, Spotify, Youtube, iTunes, etc.

And he would play anything, from Jazz to Pop, Salsa, Rock, didn't matter. He talked about it a lot.
Indeed. While I'm not a fan of most of Jaco's music, I respect him as a musician with the ability to play well with basically anyone. And I agree, that there's something worthwhile to be found in basically all styles of music.

So I'm almost 60 and a big fan of Dimeola's music and playing. I'm also father or 3 millennials including one daughter with serious guitar chops and huge love for music. I hate it when old guys make blanket statements about music today trashing kids in general. Curmudgeon Steve Miller really pissed me off when he dissed The Black Keys like they were nobody at the RNRHOF a few years back. Reality is there are huge numbers of kids right now valiantly making damn good rock music. Get out of your ivory tower Al and connect with the real world. You might learn something.
Thank you.

Dissing the works of others never elevates one's own music. It seems so conceited to me, to dismiss everything that came after one's own heyday. Al's attitude says to me that he thinks music peaked with his own work.
 
If you like generic stuff, you're never going to be lacking, because by definition there will always be plenty of it. There was a lot of crap in the 80s, maybe as much as today (I wouldn't say so, because you still pretty much had to have basic musical abilities to get heard by anyone besides your neighbors back then), but there was STILL probably twice as much great stuff. Almost the entire Police catalog came out in the 80s, most of the best U2, a whole mess of great Tangerine Dream, lots of killer jazz stuff, loads of world music coming to the fore, Peter Gabriel put out a bunch of stuff, metal really took off, alternative/college rock got started which lead to a lot of crap but also some pretty interesting stuff like Husker Du. I mean the list goes on. In the 80s, the super popular mainstream stuff was a mixed bag, especially in the mid/late 80s, but if you just dug down a LAYER or 2, you could not reach the end of great stuff. Oh, King Crimson, Talking Heads, bunch of great Rush albums (even if you only count their first 2 of the 80s, which were pretty major, but the others were all great too), Sabbath with Dio. I mean I could go on forever. We're talking ICONIC artists who still get plenty of traction today because they were great and were able to get popular because there was an infrastructure and a culture to support them. And there was great stuff for every taste, I just mentioned some of MY favorites (which for the most part I think are pretty safe to say are fairly well regarded in general).

So yeah, if you take a one dimensional look at the 80s and just see poison and culture club, sure it sucked. But in actuality that was not even the entire mainstream music scene or even close. I feel like all the Al haters are having to take a very blinkered view of previous decades to ignore the vast riches that were around and then looking at EVERY SINGLE THING COMING OUT TODAY to find the bright spots.

If you're actually honest with yourself and reasonably objective, and are reasonably broadly knowledgeable about the music of the past 5 or 6 decades to be able to actually compare and contrast them, there's only 1 conclusion that can be made. The POTENTIAL is absolutely there right now. But the CULTURE and the actual PRODUCT is absolutely not. As much as I will probably love the new Kimbra album when it comes out in a few months, that's ONE album to get excited about. And Oceans of Slumber (although the first single didn't wow me). Besides that there's literally nothing else that I can think of that I'm really looking forward to this year from a "new" artist. And if there IS something that I would dig that I don't know about, that's kind of my point, I DONT KNOW ABOUT IT. I've ALWAYS looked beyond the mainstream/current, even as a 5 year old, but 20+ years ago the mainstream was still giving me stuff that I could add to what I found on my own. That rarely happens any more.
 
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If you like generic stuff, you're never going to be lacking, because by definition there will always be plenty of it. There was a lot of crap in the 80s, maybe as much as today (I wouldn't say so, because you still pretty much had to have basic musical abilities to get heard by anyone besides your neighbors back then), but there was STILL probably twice as much great stuff. Almost the entire Police catalog came out in the 80s, most of the best U2, a whole mess of great Tangerine Dream, lots of killer jazz stuff, loads of world music coming to the fore, Peter Gabriel put out a bunch of stuff, metal really took off, alternative/college rock got started which lead to a lot of crap but also some pretty interesting stuff like Husker Du. I mean the list goes on. In the 80s, the super popular mainstream stuff was a mixed bag, especially in the mid/late 80s, but if you just dug down a LAYER or 2, you could not reach the end of great stuff. Oh, King Crimson, Talking Heads, bunch of great Rush albums (even if you only count their first 2 of the 80s, which were pretty major, but the others were all great too), Sabbath with Dio. I mean I could go on forever. We're talking ICONIC artists who still get plenty of traction today because they were great and were able to get popular because there was an infrastructure and a culture to support them. And there was great stuff for every taste, I just mentioned some of MY favorites (which for the most part I think are pretty safe to say are fairly well regarded in general).

So yeah, if you take a one dimensional look at the 80s and just see poison and culture club, sure it sucked. But in actuality that was not even the entire mainstream music scene or even close. I feel like all the Al haters are having to take a very blinkered view of previous decades to ignore the vast riches that were around and then looking at EVERY SINGLE THING COMING OUT TODAY to find the bright spots.

If you're actually honest with yourself and reasonably objective, and are reasonably broadly knowledgeable about the music of the past 5 or 6 decades to be able to actually compare and contrast them, there's only 1 conclusion that can be made. The POTENTIAL is absolutely there right now. But the CULTURE and the actual PRODUCT is absolutely not. As much as I will probably love the new Kimbra album when it comes out in a few months, that's ONE album to get excited about. And Oceans of Slumber (although the first single didn't wow me). Besides that there's literally nothing else that I can think of that I'm really looking forward to this year from a "new" artist. And if there IS something that I would dig that I don't know about, that's kind of my point, I DONT KNOW ABOUT IT. I've ALWAYS looked beyond the mainstream/current, even as a 5 year old, but 20+ years ago the mainstream was still giving me stuff that I could add to what I found on my own. That rarely happens any more.
I don't like the Police, or U2, or Tangerine Dream, and haven't liked most jazz that was made after about 1945. I absolute can't stand Talking Heads. You say they're good, but I scratch my head and shrug at their apparent appeal. Most of the metal of the 80s makes me recoil in disgust. Great players playing music that to me is like fingernails on a chalkboard.

You don't have to look at every single thing coming out today to find the bright spots. Just set Pandora to a newer artist you like, and then let it go where it goes.

Thanks for calling my tastes "generic" though, adding that to the other insults you've hurled at me.
 
Oh you're one of "those" people. No wonder you think now is better. I guess you must like what Stewart Copeland calls "the wrong jazz" which is what his father who played with Benny Goodman I think raised him on. I mean, you don't like Sketches of Spain? You don't like Idle Moments? You don't like A Love Supreme? You don't like Mingus Ah Uhm? You don't like Maiden Voyage? So you just like what, Jelly Roll and Woody Shaw AND NOTHING ELSE? Jazz wasn't even getting WARMED UP until at least the 50s. What are you even listening to music for? It sounds like you actively hate it because you seem to dismiss all the most musical music.

Clearly you must be very picky (notice I didn't say discerning). Basically validates my comment before about how little kids eat and what they like and don't.

I'm the opposite. I'm discerning because I don't have time in my life to listen to crappy or mediocre generic music. But I'm not picky because I like all kinds of different stuff as you might be sort of picking up on. Fusion is but one of the areas of music I happen to like. But those guys came along at just the right time and place, and blazed a COMPLETELY new trail, in concert with a lot of new technology at the time (high gain amps, effects, synthesizers, 16 and 24 track recording, etc...). So yeah, the guy who landed on the moon isn't impressed by the kid riding his bike to the corner store. And yet the bike ride to the store is given praise and attention and money, and the trip to the moon is forgotten or ignored because it happened a long time ago, even though it was actually far more significant. Hard to blame the astronaut for not being thrilled about that. And how come nobody is going to the moon? Because the guys who went to the moon were building on what the guys who learned to fly had built. And THEY were building on what came before THEM. Etc...

So it sounds like you have too narrow of a personal perspective to really understand all that, but coming from someone that has 30+ years of being extremely immersed in music culture and history and technology and just being a fan, what I am telling you is true. And you don't have to believe it, but the great thing about the truth is that it doesn't care if you believe it or not, because it just is. But since you're basically just crapping on everything while saying "music now is better" and not remotely backing it up with anything of substance, I'll probably bow out now because I find people like you and your bizarre and random tastes yet strict adherence to them extremely tiresome (and have run into way too many of them on the internet over the years).
 
Also, if your argument to "good music is not as easy to find now as it was in previous decades such as the 70s and 90s" is "just let a computer algorithm find good music for you eventually", you've already lost. I mean, I wanted an interesting 80s station a few years ago, and I started with the Police, maybe some Men at Work, Duran Duran, that kind of stuff, and it gave me Journey. Like, NFW, pandora, you're fired. Spotify I only use to listen to stuff I dont have since I like my music to sound good and not be interrupted by annoying ads, so my "discovery weekly" playlist or whatever is pretty random and not very trustworthy. And when you say "oh radio is dying", YES THAT IS MY DAMN POINT. We've lost those curated outlets, and now we just have lousy and inaccurate computer algorithms to find us good music. And it doesn't work that great. Maybe in 10 more years the AI tech will be there, but it sure ain't now. If you're a "typical listener" maybe it works ok. But for someone like me who's already gone through and self explored music on my own, it's damn near worthless.
 
Gentlemen, please either reread Rule #1 or get a room (i.e. - take it to PM). Or both.

Distance urination contests over matters that are inherently subjective are almost the textbook definition of futility, and only serve to derail public threads.
 
Hmm, music is more than just something to listen to or how clever or complicated it was written. Music can spark a memory. Make a moment in history, big or small. I learned a long time ago that it doesn't matter who is making the music (artist) or if it is a piece that I like. Someone does and it means something to them.

That said my music teacher in high school said that Elvis was the worst thing to happen to music and he destroyed the industry. Three or four people playing instruments is not music. It is an abomination!
Well that was his take on it. I liked Elvis. Rush is one of my favorite bands. I have just been getting into Jazz. The likes of Marcus Miller and Victor Wooten. I play country, pop, rock, metal and now learning Jazz. To hold back on anything just because it is too new or not complicated enough I think hold one back.

Each to their own though
 
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Al di who...? Another pretentious crybaby who just can't get over it and thinks the only true peak in music was the time when he was relevant. There's a ton of guys like that. I don't have respect for the kind of attitude, no matter how big you are or how many people you trick into considering your terribly boring stuff. BTW, his peak was Friday night in SF (BTW, with two other down to earth reasonable guys who -specially Paco- never ceased to be amazed by many generations of musicians and the current state of music). I find his "shredding Santana" shtick plain somniferous.

I don't know what somniferous means, but I prefer Santana to Al any day of the week! Al can play a lot of notes; Carlos wrings the max out of each one.

I looked up somniferous. It means what I guessed it might mean.

Edited to add that I listen to Elegant Gypsy and Electric Rendezvous all the time, and enjoy many other albums by Big Al.

Not as much as I listen to Carlos thought!
 
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I love Al's playing more than I do his writing, I think. He has wrote some great pieces, though. It's worth pointing out that in the fusion scene of the late 70's, no-one had nailed alternate picking like he had. He had an absolutely distinct sound from his mastery of that style of playing. Of course, just a few short years later players like Steve Vai and Greg Howe showed up and melded rapid Di Meola style picking with Holdsworth style legato and the game changed again. His influence on an entire generation of guitarists cannot be understated.
 
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