Double Bass "alternative" German bow holds

[RSerbel]

Can anyone point me to any video or written info on German bow holds that aren't the typical "thumb more on top of the stick pointing towards the tip" and the "tip of the thumb applying the pressure" type of methods (put in quotes to generalize those holds). Think things like the Viennese hold, or those that might keep the top of the stick more words the web space of the thumb, thumb more towards perpendicular to the stick, etc, etc. I've been modifying my own grip on it every now and then based on a history of a thumb injury, and I'd like to just hear or see (preferably explaining what a player might be doing with each of those fingers) to help analyze and fine tune my own finger placement and understands roles of each more.

I've found various things on youtube to watch such as Christine Hoock's hold, people in Vienna, but I think it'd be interesting to hear / read explanations of these choices (hand size, preference, what the fingers / wrist are doing, frog and bow choice and how that might influence it).

 

[LouisF]

Robert Oppelt from the National Symphony has the most comprehensive description: Holding the German bow: article by Robert Oppelt

Most German players squeeze the frog too hard IMO --- you can get pretty far with a loose grip, arm weight and a relaxed thumb

Also, these are very helpful: Gel Thumb Support

I have rubber tubing (like French players use) but on the turning screw before the frog (rather than after the frog as in Fr. bow)

I have both arthritis and tendonitis and manage to play without (too much!) pain with these adjustments. Good luck

 

[RSerbel]

Robert Oppelt from the National Symphony has the most comprehensive description: Holding the German bow: article by Robert Oppelt

Most German players squeeze the frog too hard IMO --- you can get pretty far with a loose grip, arm weight and a relaxed thumb

Also, these are very helpful: Gel Thumb Support

I have rubber tubing (like French players use) but on the turning screw before the frog (rather than after the frog as in Fr. bow)

I have both arthritis and tendonitis and manage to play without (too much!) pain with these adjustments. Good luck

Oppelt's site is perfect! thanks

 

[fdeck]

Though I play French, my curiosity was Piqued, and then the link didn't work. I also found it here, just for posterity's sake

German Bow Grips | roppelt

lowstringsgdae.wixsite.com

 

[Mikeyboyaz]

Though I play French, my curiosity was Piqued, and then the link didn't work. I also found it here, just for posterity's sake

German Bow Grips | roppelt

lowstringsgdae.wixsite.com

This was very interesting... I've only ever used the 7 and 11 techniques pictured, but I took to a very parallel to the stick technique for legato work after I saw a group photo of a studio of all German bow players... I enjoy it. The hand is open, fingers close but not tight, and the thumb points perpendicular to the stick...

 

[Mikeyboyaz]

This was very interesting... I've only ever used the 7 and 11 techniques pictured, but I took to a very parallel to the stick technique for legato work after I saw a group photo of a studio of all German bow players... I enjoy it. The hand is open, fingers close but not tight, and the thumb points perpendicular to the stick...

Also... If you guys can forgive the mismatched Indian rosewood repair of the frog, that would be appreciated... I didn't have Ebony at the time. I have since mended my ways and have multiples of thinstock on hand for the next repair... Which hopefully happens never...

 

[Mark_T]

I started with a technique like what David Allen Moore describes here:



Oppelt’s description don’t quite get to what David is describing, although several are close. My hand isn’t quite large enough do what David suggests, but I’ve attempted to adapt the principals to something that fits my hand and bow. Joel Quarrington’s hold is also sort of similar. Not to suggest that any of these techniques are right or wrong, but just throwing out some other options.

 

[LaFaro01]

Robert Oppelt from the National Symphony has the most comprehensive description: Holding the German bow: article by Robert Oppelt

Most German players squeeze the frog too hard IMO --- you can get pretty far with a loose grip, arm weight and a relaxed thumb

Also, these are very helpful: Gel Thumb Support

I have rubber tubing (like French players use) but on the turning screw before the frog (rather than after the frog as in Fr. bow)

I have both arthritis and tendonitis and manage to play without (too much!) pain with these adjustments. Good luck

In the picture, though, the way the fingers are positioned doesn't really look healthy to me in the long run...
For me the ideas and suggestions of David Allen Moore look "more sustainable"...

 

[Mark_T]

To elaborate slightly, I like DAM's idea of the transfer of weight to the stick focused through the first finger but supported by the thumb (especially on the lower strings). My first and second finger aren't long enough to be in the position he suggests past the frog, so they end up being along side the frog instead (but still on the facets of the octagon as he suggests).

I have been working to also use the first finger to try and "feel the string" - so I'm looking to be hyper-aware of any tactile feedback transmitted back from the string through the bow to that finger. My thinking here is that I want to be able to sense the amount of grip I'm getting on the string through the pad of that finger, and I want my articulations to be focused through that finger. It's like imagining there's no bow at all and my index finger is playing pizz - that's the level of feedback and control I'm trying to ask for through the finger.

My thinking is that getting feedback like that will help me adjust to dynamic conditions, get precise articulations, and avoid squeaks and false starts by sensing the contact between bow and string.

 

[LouisF]

Michael Barry Wolf, in his German/English "Principles of Double Bass Technique" talks about (on pp. 58-60) a loose, light grip, with the first and second fingers "lifting" the bow against the string, and the hand very relaxed and open. Since I have both arthritis and tendonitis issues, I find this approach very useful, and basically use it with some modifications for specific instances in orchestra playing. I've seen too many players locking wrists and squeezing or pinching fingers on the stick, doing themselves (as I did in my younger days) irreparable damage. I'll scan the pages later.

 

[Mark_T]

Michael Barry Wolf, in his German/English "Principles of Double Bass Technique" talks about (on pp. 58-60) a loose, light grip, with the first and second fingers "lifting" the bow against the string, and the hand very relaxed and open. Since I have both arthritis and tendonitis issues, I find this approach very useful, and basically use it with some modifications for specific instances in orchestra playing. I've seen too many players locking wrists and squeezing or pinching fingers on the stick, doing themselves (as I did in my younger days) irreparable damage. I'll scan the pages later.

In my approach my hand is extremely relaxed. It's actually that looseness that got me to switch over from French bow. I have years of experience with both and am a pretty decent French player, but I never was able to achieve the sort of loose, relaxed hand playing French that I can playing German.

 

[LouisF]

The pages from Michael Wolf's book mentioned above are attached/