Double Bass Alternatives to Walter Woods head

[Low Class]

Yes, I've checked them out. Frankly, I found it to be sorta anemic in comparison to the WW or the TH500. That isn't saying the Kustom sounds bad..but it didn't seem like an amplifier that would be dependable or consistent over time for DB use. Build quality seemed so-so. And certainly it's voiced more for bass guitar than double bass imo. My feeling about the Kustom is that it would fatigue over the course of an evening, and that you might need some extra outboard eq to make it work for DB. I dig the look and footprint though. Owning WW and looking for a backup, in my search the Aguilar filled the bill in terms of the op's query. I have not been disappointed with my WW. Yes I've seen the thread on the BG side, did you start that? Do you play double bass? Have you gigged on DB over a long period with this Kustom amp?

The original Kustom amps are a whole 'nother story. I owned one, silver tuck and roll, 200 watts. Really well built amps, using US military spec components. The story i heard is that the guy who started the company's father owned a company building caskets for military casualties (Vietnam era) and that he was building amps in the same facility at the start. Great bass guitar amp for some styles (even now), not so great for DB ever.

Here's my thread from the BG side:
http://www.talkbass.com/threads/nad-the-best-amp-ive-ever-heard-kustom-kxb500.1094234/

As Ric Vice as mentioned, over the past 32 years I have owned just about every WW amp model made. No I do not play DB, but I play a lot of jazz combos and big band on electric using mainly on preCBS Jazz basses over the years. I'm not just a rock player. Funny you mention that you think the KXB500 sounds anemic compared to the WW or TH500 because NOBODY else has reported anything like that. In fact it is usually just the opposite. As much as I appreciated Walter's amps I never got as full of sound from it as the kxb500. I am using the same Berg HT112ER cabs now as I did with the Ultra I had and the WW never filled these cabs out like the kxb500 does. Also you mention that it feels cheaply made where everyone else has said it is built like a tank. Makes me wonder if you have the mistaken the kxb500 for another Kustom amp.

The most common things said about the kxb500 by it users are "no color" and "it sounds like your bass". If you have a good DB with a good pickup I have no reason to believe the kxb500 would not perform admirably.

Here's a quote from a TB KXB500 owner:

"I initially tried one because at the time they were practically being given away. And when I got it I was blown away. I heard no weaknesses in its performance. Since then I've had the opportunity to directly compare it to most of its competition... just about anything out there. One memorable A/B/C was the KXB against a 600w Acoustic Image and a high power Walter Woods. The anonymous consensus was no clear winner. They all sounded great."

 

[Ric Vice]

Here's my thread from the BG side:
http://www.talkbass.com/threads/nad-the-best-amp-ive-ever-heard-kustom-kxb500.1094234/

"I initially tried one because at the time they were practically being given away. And when I got it I was blown away. I heard no weaknesses in its performance. Since then I've had the opportunity to directly compare it to most of its competition... just about anything out there. One memorable A/B/C was the KXB against a 600w Acoustic Image and a high power Walter Woods. The anonymous consensus was no clear winner. They all sounded great."

I think that this was a fair comparison of three amps, that have very different design goals. Acoustic Image Amps are voiced to sound as uncolored as possible, while Walter Woods amps have a very specific pre amp sound with a distinct low midrange emphasis, the KXB is most likely voice to sound the best with Bass Guitar, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, because occasionally, those very amps work quite well with an Upright. Gallien Krueger amps from the 200MB and 400RB lines worked quite well with Double Bass, but weren't specifically intended for
it's amplification. Sometimes, I think great tone quality for a specific instrument just ends up being a "happy accident".

Ric

 

[MR PC]

Ok, Low Class, I hear ya...it took something like 30 years and 30 WW amps costing between $1000-$3000 each to get to the $500 Kustom. That's upwards of roughly 50K versus .5K. I'm glad the amp game is over for you, whew! I guess it's just all relative if you have that kind life of economic leisure, and ready cash flow, and that it's possible that the Kustom will be a happy surprise for DB players searching for an affordable alternative to WW..but lets not forget there are other companies dedicated to designing affordable amps with DB in mind. I really doubt that is what Kustom has done.

 

[Low Class]

Ok, Low Class, I hear ya...it took something like 30 years and 30 WW amps costing between $1000-$3000 each to get to the $500 Kustom. That's upwards of roughly 50K versus .5K. I'm glad the amp game is over for you, whew! I guess it's just all relative if you have that kind life of economic leisure, and ready cash flow, and that it's possible that the Kustom will be a happy surprise for DB players searching for an affordable alternative to WW..but lets not forget there are other companies dedicated to designing affordable amps with DB in mind. I really doubt that is what Kustom has done.

I really doubt Aguilar had DB in mind when designing the TH500, yet it is what you have chosen. btw, have you noticed how many TH500's come up for sale on the TB classifieds and how many electric players comment how dissatisfied they are with it?

Just to let you know, only about 5 of those 30 something WW amps were used by me for an extended period of time. The rest were bought used and sold for profit. Frankly I could care less what something costs, I just want it to satisfy my ears and not break my back to haul around. If weight were not a factor I probably would have been playing through a different amp all those years. As Ric has mentioned an amp does not necessarily have to specifically be designed for DB to sound great with a DB. One of the best amplified DB I've ever heard was through a GK 800RB.

The kxb500 may not be for everybody as there is no amp for everybody. As Ric mentioned the WW has a specific voice to it that does not please everybody. As an amp that has no color and sounds like your bass, it would only make sense to me that a DB player would want to consider the kxb500. At around $350 with a 5 year warranty it would be worth a try. It's also half the weight of the WW and has a very usable DI, something Walter has not had on his amps since '95. If you don't like it you will still have a great amp for BG.

 

[MR PC]

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[MR PC]

The kxb500 may not be for everybody as there is no amp for everybody. As Ric mentioned the WW has a specific voice to it that does not please everybody. As an amp that has no color and sounds like your bass, it would only make sense to me that a DB player would want to consider the kxb500. At around $350 with a 5 year warranty it would be worth a try. It's also half the weight of the WW and has a very usable DI, something Walter has not had on his amps since '95. If you don't like it you will still have a great amp for BG.

Fairly good sales pitch...LOL! It sounds like you are no stranger to pushing and flipping LOTS of gear for profit..! How about if I consider it and I don't like it for any reason including the sales technique, howz 'bout I return it before I even buy it! Is that OK? Really man, that sounds just like somebody working on sales commission at GC to me.

There is no such thing as an amp that has no color for DB. You don't really seem to understand that basic point, because you haven't experienced it over any length of time. You aren't a DB player. No amplifier will ever "sound like a DB, only louder". If you ever become interested in playing DB and pursue it with the same passion that you have for your bass guitars, you surely will understand that basic point clearly.

On the DI, yes, Walter simply stopped putting those in his amps because it became a point for criticism for certain WW haters, and poor sound engineers. I'm sure you've run into at least one or both of those in your tenure.

I use a Countryman DI with my WW. Fantastic DI with the WW. I don't mind carrying it and hooking it up. If the FOH doesn't like it, they can switch it for another one, something they are going to do if they don't like the DI on any kind of amp anyway.

 

[MrSidecar]

About the Kustom: I have never seen, heard or played one, but a brief look into the manual reveals that the first thing that keeps the amp from being a plug 'n play solution for double bass is the input impedance. The manual states 690 KOhm, while it is generally agreed upon that the piezo pickups widely used in double bass amplification (and even more so the contact microphones floating around) need an input impedance of 1 MOhm or higher to properly load them. Suboptimal loading serves essentially as a kind of high pass filter, bass response is lacking, midrange gets quacky.
So, for double bass, you would at least have to use a proper preamp (if you like, compare the input impedance to the well-known Walter Woods specs). That doesn't keep the Kustom from being cool, or okay, or great for double bass. But it's something to consider.

Best
Sidecar

 

[MR PC]

About the Kustom: I have never seen, heard or played one, but a brief look into the manual reveals that the first thing that keeps the amp from being a plug 'n play solution for double bass is the input impedance. The manual states 690 KOhm, while it is generally agreed upon that the piezo pickups widely used in double bass amplification (and even more so the contact microphones floating around) need an input impedance of 1 MOhm or higher to properly load them. Suboptimal loading serves essentially as a kind of high pass filter, bass response is lacking, midrange gets quacky.
So, for double bass, you would at least have to use a proper preamp (if you like, compare the input impedance to the well-known Walter Woods specs). That doesn't keep the Kustom from being cool, or okay, or great for double bass. But it's something to consider.

Best
Sidecar

Good point. That is probably why I felt compelled to say the things about this amp for DB use. I tried (and failed ) to be polite, because I just think it's not useful as a stand alone head for DB use. And for EB, I didn't like it at all, that midrange "quacky" quality might be desirable to some EB players. But not me.

 

[Ric Vice]

There is no such thing as an amp that has no color for DB. You don't really seem to understand that basic point, because you haven't experienced it over any length of time. You aren't a DB player. No amplifier will ever "sound like a DB, only louder". If you ever become interested in playing DB and pursue it with the same passion that you have for your bass guitars, you surely will understand that basic point clearly.

+1 and I'm not sure, even if it were possible, that I'd want one anyway. Walter's amplifiers were/are voiced to compliment a Double Bass. In the end result that's what they do best.

On the DI, yes, Walter simply stopped putting those in his amps because it became a point for criticism for certain WW haters, and poor sound engineers. I'm sure you've run into at least one or both of those in your tenure.

I certainly have, but I've found that competent sound engineers have very little difficulty, running a DI off of one of Walter's amps.

I use a Countryman DI with my WW. Fantastic DI with the WW. I don't mind carrying it and hooking it up. If the FOH doesn't like it, they can switch it for another one, something they are going to do if they don't like the DI on any kind of amp anyway.

As we've discussed before, the Countryman seems to be one of the best matches for a Walter Woods Amp. In my experience many of the best sound companies have Countryman DI's. It's one barometer to discern the quality and expertise of a frontline sound company. If they use Countryman DI's in good condition, it can be a good indication of their technical competence. Not always of course, but it's a good thing to observe. if I see a beat up Whirlwind DI, it's a bad sign. IMHO.

Ric

 

[robgrow]

The preamp in the older WW amps is a Class A discrete transistor design that was intended to emulate the sound of a vacuum tube (valve) preamp. It is very warm and musical sounding and the EQ is very broad, and the boost/cut frequencies are really nice for the DB. Many recent amps use IC's in a class AB design by comparison. The WW Electracoustic models also use IC's in the preamp circuits as opposed to the discrete transistors used in the early amps.

It's important to remember that when Walter introduced his first amp in the early 1970's, it was a radical design that only weighed a few pounds in a time when almost all other amps weighed many pounds. Also many people thought the early solid-state amps were cold and sterile sounding, while the WW sounded more like a tube amp, yet were much smaller and lighter than any tube amp.

Since it was hard enough just to move a DB, an amp that was small and light and sounded great was revolutionary at the time and caught on with many bassists. Now there are lots of small and light amps. To my knowledge however, none sound like a WW.

 

[MrSidecar]

and the EQ is very broad, and the boost/cut frequencies are really nice for the DB

... And this, exactly, is the bit I would love to have details on. Sorry if it sounds as I'm brushing you off, it's not what I mean, since that is indeed useful info- but I would love specifics . Plain and simple curiosity. Where are the boosts and cuts centered? How much boost and cut is possible? I'm not really interested in replicating the Woods, basically just acquiring nerd knowledge.

The preamp in the older WW amps is a Class A discrete transistor design that was intended to emulate the sound of a vacuum tube (valve) preamp.

when Walter introduced his first amp in the early 1970's, it was a radical design that only weighed a few pounds in a time when almost all other amps weighed many pounds.

These two bits actually remind me of my very first amplifier, a little gem I recently rediscovered and am going to post about soon in a separate thread... But I digress.

Best
Sidecar

 

[robgrow]

If you compare the EQ on an early WW amp, and most late-model (at least those that I've heard) they are nothing alike. I think this is largely due to the super-broad bands of each filter section (very low Q) and the way the boost/cut frequencies were chosen (just right for DB). The amount of boost/cut available is around +/- 12dB, which is a lot when you are boosting or cutting a lot of frequencies (wide bandwidth). Many modern EQ filter sections are very narrow by comparison.

Someone should make a standalone copy of an MI 100 preamp, using the same circuit. Maybe combine this with a modern Class D power amp module, which should make a great little amp.

 

[flatback]

I am really interested in the Demeter VTBP-M-800D as a substitute for a Walter Woods. I have been playing an old M100 all week and the eq even 30 years later is so effective for DB. I dont think the Demeter has that going for it but I played an older version Demeter tube preamp this week too and it really sounded great. The form factor of the new Demeter amp is perfect and if needs be velcro a EDB2 on top (but for that money it should have a decent eq (maybe a DB version?) but the fatness and presence of that tube preamp is really special...with my DB.

 

[MR PC]

I am really interested in the Demeter VTBP-M-800D as a substitute for a Walter Woods. I have been playing an old M100 all week and the eq even 30 years later is so effective for DB. I dont think the Demeter has that going for it but I played an older version Demeter tube preamp this week too and it really sounded great. The form factor of the new Demeter amp is perfect and if needs be velcro a EDB2 on top (but for that money it should have a decent eq (maybe a DB version?) but the fatness and presence of that tube preamp is really special...with my DB.

Yes flatback, I have the old Demeter tube pre, one of the 80's originals. The eq is very sweet, the controls are interactive and very wide ranging once you get the feel for them, and I believe the design is based on the old '59 Fender Bassman pre amp. It lives for recording projects in my world now, a bit too bulky to haul around. I think the EQ on the newer Demeter is pretty darn similar.

 

[MrSidecar]

Someone should make a standalone copy of an MI 100 preamp, using the same circuit. Maybe combine this with a modern Class D power amp module, which should make a great little amp.

I wonder why this has not happened yet. Nowadays, these old school non-opamp circuits seem a little antique/passé, but there's certainly a lot of charm to the idea.

 

[Ric Vice]

I wonder why this has not happened yet. Nowadays, these old school non-opamp circuits seem a little antique/passé, but there's certainly a lot of charm to the idea.

Well, the first question I guess we should ask ourselves is even if you could copy Walter's pre amp design, is it ethical? My B-15N(C) is certainly old enough to be considered antique, but it's easier to repair a B-15N(C) now that it is to repair a Walter Woods.
Granted it's a much simpler amplifier design, but it's really stood the test of time. Apparently, Walter used some really boutique components in his designs, and they are becoming harder and harder to come by. When he recently repaired my Ultra, his comment was, "that's a really old amp".

I am really interested in the Demeter VTBP-M-800D as a substitute for a Walter Woods. I have been playing an old M100 all week and the eq even 30 years later is so effective for DB. I dont think the Demeter has that going for it but I played an older version Demeter tube preamp this week too and it really sounded great. The form factor of the new Demeter amp is perfect and if needs be velcro a EDB2 on top (but for that money it should have a decent eq (maybe a DB version?) but the fatness and presence of that tube preamp is really special...with my DB.

+1 I have two of Walter's amplifiers (a MI-400-8 and an early Electroacoustic Ultra) As Robgrow says they are completely different amplifiers, but you cannot beat them for DB or doubling. I'm with you Piro, my next purchase is a Demeter Minnie 800D, the form factor of that power amp with a Headway EDB-2
is very attractive and a powerful alternative to a Woods, with a set of features, that aren't available on Walter's amps. Additionally, it's probably less expensive to maintain and repair that a Woods.

Ric

 

[Nathan Levine]

I picked up a used Minnie, along with a MAS 45, on the other side a little while ago and paired with my old EDB1 it is pretty darn sweet. Sexier than the Focus SA, the Minnie does it's simple job brilliantly.

Before plunging for the EDB2, I wanted to check out the Vintage Revolution preamp that the Gollihurs starting selling a little while ago. I am really liking the separate parametric mid controls on each channel that then get routed to a master eq section. Two separate volume knobs for the DI and the amp is a handy feature too.

Whenever an old WW M100 comes up for sale, I am sorely tempted to snatch it up. Just to try it to see and hear for myself this classic and near mythical amp. But the lack of a mic input, paired with the age and a $600 flat repair fee scares me away each and every time.

 

[flatback]

Nathan
Is there any difference in sound running the EDB1 into a Minnie as opposed to the Focus SA? In other words does the power amp have any color or sound or is it all the preamp?
I am really interested in the Minnie coupled with the tube preamp. He has it all boxed up in a perfect package. I learn about this stuff from Mike Arnopol but he says stuff like "best DB sound I ever had, but I hate the preamp controls" I love the presence of the Valve front end but I want one with the Headway preamp controls....
Nathan, more info on the new preamp and comparisons with the Headway would be good....

 

[Nathan Levine]

Haven't had the SA for over a year now, so I can't compare directly. They both did the job just fine. The Minnie is in a sleeker case and new, vs the SA which has been out of production for many years now. With AI's stellar customer service, most of us know it doesn't matter how old an AI product is, if it can be fixed Rick will happily do it.

To answer your question about the color of a power amp, I am sure finer ears than mine could detect differences, but I'm not hearing any aural thing that is blatantly obvious.

I haven't had the time to do lots of side by side comparison with the Headway and the Vintage Revolution. Using just the Troll mic, I did notice dialing in a proper sound with the Headway was really easy. Not as simple with the Vintage Rev box. But once I did, I was really happy with it. Will try to get some side by sides in this weekend, using a cabinet that I am very familiar with.

 

[robgrow]

It's interesting to note that one of Walter's first customers (circa early 1970's) was the pop group The Carpenters, who bought some WW amps to take on tour for use on guitar, bass guitar and keyboards. WW amps were not just intended for DB. One of the first upright bassists to use a WW amp was Herb Mickman.