• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Am I in the wrong?

P

pglaser01

Mar 19, 2013
1,612
2,694
St. Louis, MO
www.dudeabidesstl.com
Disclosures
If only I were that good....
#1
Here's the scoop,

My band has been playin together since Nov. Its a six person cover band. Our first show was in April, it was a tiny gig for our guitarists surprise bday party, in the basement of a tiny bar where 4 of us played for 45 minutes.

Our first real show was back in may. The owner is a personal friend of mine and I asked him if he would allow us to play, as a favor to me, as they don't usually have live music given the size of the place barely holds 80-100 people. The first show went over very well, we brought a great crowd and played 2 1/2 hours of stuff. The bar loved us and wanted us to come back regularly, which we said sure.

So then it apparently falls on me to be the negotiator and that I'm supposed to get a great price for us to play regularly there. I'm not the band leader and I wanted no part in trying to negotiate prices with my friend. I made this very clear to everyone else, and even though they said they'd be ok taking care of it, still a week later theyre asking me what the deal is.

So fianlly I get the offer, yeah it's pretty low, half what they wanted at minimum. So a week before our next show the BL decides the offer is insulting and even when the owner says I can't give you guys over half what I make in a night. Now the whole band says its not worth it and decides to cancel...

So here's my issue, we're a brand new band, noone else knows us, and we've got nowhere even close to another offer to play somewhere. Why didn't we just take the gig and work it out later down the line, this way we get to play (which is the whole point), work on our sound, decide which songs people respond to and which they don't and get paid and free drink to PLAY MUSIC...I get it, people have other things they need to do, have kids and need a babysitter, other plans they can do. We've all got full time jobs, this isn't gonna be a career. How can you say this isn't about the money when the first lowball offer you find insulting and want more money??? Especially when it's the first offer we've ever gotten?

I got out voted, I can accept that but I feel we got our ego's way too inflated after just one show. We've got nothing in the works, we had a chance at a regular gig which I felt was a way to practice outside of a basement. We've got no press yet, no contacts yet and the only place we had we just pissed off... Am I right for thinking any gig is a good gig when you're just starting out? Or am I wrong??
 
#4
chubfarm2001 said:
I would say that's a pretty bad start for a band. All bands have to pay their dues coming up in the scene, and to give yourselves a bad rep right at the first show could be a sign of things to come. Like Blue sad, I would have a serious sitdown and get things figures out before too much damage is done.
Click to expand...

Not always true. All bands without known players have to pay their dues. Musicians who are known on the scene and are known to play in bands that attract crowds can usually get at least a Thursday night for some decent pay.

As to the OP's questions, you're not wrong or right. If the band doesn't want to play gigs unless they pay a certain amount then that is their right. That said, they might find themselves never playing any gigs. If you think they're being unrealistic then perhaps you need to find more like-minded players to hook up with.
 
#6
I think I used to play in your band :p Been there with this same scene, new band does a freeby or low pay show and then the band wants top scale for the area without paying some dues...tuff call.

What helped me was the lack of interest until we got experience and I told them at least we are paid and have a gig. Is this where you want to stay? No but its better than nothing for now.

Then on the other hand my bands in the past helped out a new bar or place by taking a cheap gig with promise of better paying gigs down the line. Sometimes it worked but often they screwed us over or never paid us what they said they would..we screwed ourselves by starting cheap.
 
#7
Tough call, OP. I actually agree with you.
Not sure if going back to your friend's bar is still an option. Taking the offered pay and maybe charging $2 or $3 at the door (+paying a door person) to get you to the band's 'pay' level without taking it out of the owner's pocket. This is also when the 'rubber hits the road' point - your band has a guarantee but can make more if you pack the bar. If you pack the bar, everyone wins. If you don't pack the bar again, the band will get a helping of humble pie that may bring their expectations back down to earth. With this offer, you should also step away from negotiating with your friend at this location as you probably want to keep this friendship. If anything changes, it should only be the amount you charge at the door.
Good luck!
 
#9
If you're completely unknown, and aren't getting any other offers, surely it's better playing a few low paying gigs than not playing at all. As you say, it would give you experience, see what songs work and just learn some stage craft. It's not like the guy was ripping you off (from what you say). He can only pay you what he can afford in a small venue that doesn't host much live music. Still, it's a band decision - I think they made the wrong one in this case. Most unknown bands start out playing for very little money - that's always been the case. In your situation, I'd much rather spend a night playing music to 80 people than sitting at home on my ass.
 
#10
thanks guys,

it is a weird situation, it's not a new bar, this place has been open before we were born, and we're all around 30 y/o. I guess it just pains me that we could have sucked it up and used it to our advantage, and yes I also had the idea of maybe a $2/3 cover which a large percentage would have been ours. But after I got the offer, it actually took only about two hours for the gig to get cancelled. It makes me think our BL didn't even think about trying to say, "ok we'll do it for now but if we continue to fill your bar we need to get paid better." or even the idea of the cover, which I had mentioned to him earlier...It almost seemed like his ego was too hurt by the low offer to even consider playing there, and he even referenced how he played bar circuits in college (acoustic shows at small town college with no competition) which I felt had no relevance to the topic. We're in a huge metropolitan area with literally hundreds of bands vying for spots and only a handful of top bands getting regular rotations. I'm trying different contacts I know of, but I thinking being so unknown, were not gonna make what other bands make...does it sound like this is gonna be the norm??
 
#11
pglaser01 said:
thanks guys,

it is a weird situation, it's not a new bar, this place has been open before we were born, and we're all around 30 y/o. I guess it just pains me that we could have sucked it up and used it to our advantage, and yes I also had the idea of maybe a $2/3 cover which a large percentage would have been ours. But after I got the offer, it actually took only about two hours for the gig to get cancelled. It makes me think our BL didn't even think about trying to say, "ok we'll do it for now but if we continue to fill your bar we need to get paid better." or even the idea of the cover, which I had mentioned to him earlier...It almost seemed like his ego was too hurt by the low offer to even consider playing there, and he even referenced how he played bar circuits in college (acoustic shows at small town college with no competition) which I felt had no relevance to the topic. We're in a huge metropolitan area with literally hundreds of bands vying for spots and only a handful of top bands getting regular rotations. I'm trying different contacts I know of, but I thinking being so unknown, were not gonna make what other bands make...does it sound like this is gonna be the norm??
Click to expand...

If there is one thing I have learned in being in bands the last 11 years is most bands think they are worth more and are more impotant then they are or ever will be.
 
#13
First - your BL is a dirt bag for putting you in that position with your bar owning friend and hopefully he won’t hold it against you for cancelling. On anther note - with this in mind, now that BL is setting the pay scale - agree, and tell the BL what your minimum pay will be from here on out!!! Oh, and since you never know if and when the BL may decide to cancel a gig - from here on out, get each gig in writing before committing.

pglaser01 said:
Here's the scoop,

My band has been playin together since Nov. Its a six person cover band. Our first show was in April, it was a tiny gig for our guitarists surprise bday party, in the basement of a tiny bar where 4 of us played for 45 minutes.

Our first real show was back in may. The owner is a personal friend of mine and I asked him if he would allow us to play, as a favor to me, as they don't usually have live music given the size of the place barely holds 80-100 people. The first show went over very well, we brought a great crowd and played 2 1/2 hours of stuff. The bar loved us and wanted us to come back regularly, which we said sure.

So then it apparently falls on me to be the negotiator and that I'm supposed to get a great price for us to play regularly there. I'm not the band leader and I wanted no part in trying to negotiate prices with my friend. I made this very clear to everyone else, and even though they said they'd be ok taking care of it, still a week later theyre asking me what the deal is.

So fianlly I get the offer, yeah it's pretty low, half what they wanted at minimum. So a week before our next show the BL decides the offer is insulting and even when the owner says I can't give you guys over half what I make in a night. Now the whole band says its not worth it and decides to cancel...

So here's my issue, we're a brand new band, noone else knows us, and we've got nowhere even close to another offer to play somewhere. Why didn't we just take the gig and work it out later down the line, this way we get to play (which is the whole point), work on our sound, decide which songs people respond to and which they don't and get paid and free drink to PLAY MUSIC...I get it, people have other things they need to do, have kids and need a babysitter, other plans they can do. We've all got full time jobs, this isn't gonna be a career. How can you say this isn't about the money when the first lowball offer you find insulting and want more money??? Especially when it's the first offer we've ever gotten?

I got out voted, I can accept that but I feel we got our ego's way too inflated after just one show. We've got nothing in the works, we had a chance at a regular gig which I felt was a way to practice outside of a basement. We've got no press yet, no contacts yet and the only place we had we just pissed off... Am I right for thinking any gig is a good gig when you're just starting out? Or am I wrong??
Click to expand...
 
#14
See if what your band wants is simliar to what other bands get paid for the same kind of venues. Wanting too much will keep you unknown. Bars, for instance, usually can't pay very much (usually $300-400 around these parts). Some can do more than others, but just don't outscale yourselves from what's possible.
 
#15
Russell L said:
See if what your band wants is simliar to what other bands get paid for the same kind of venues. Wanting too much will keep you unknown. Bars, for instance, usually can't pay very much (usually $300-400 around these parts). Some can do more than others, but just don't outscale yourselves from what's possible.
Click to expand...

True, don't price yourselves out of the market. Bar bands in my part of the country, $400.00 is the top of the scale every once in a while you can get $500.00 but thats rare.

Also a band with no gigs is part of the recipe for a break up.

Blue
 
#16
This is why it is great to be a part of a scaleable band.

6 persons, means 6x money. Got only 3x money? Then get 3 people and make it work. Can you do the gig as a trio, with either people from this band, or if they say no, other people you know? Adapt the sound to fit the budget. If the employers want a bigger sound from a bigger band they pay more to get the bigger band.
 
#17
If you let yourself become known at "the band that will play for less money" then you'll find it almost impossible to get venues to pay more. Better to invest the time hunting down gigs that will pay a fair amount.

Benefits are a good way to be seen by a lot of people and put your sound side-by-side with a bunch of other bands. Hopefully you will compare favorably. Just make sure it's a worthy cause and not just some unscrupulous bar owner ripping off your talent.
 
#20
At my age, freebies and low ball gigs are a thing of the past. With the blues trio I play in we are all in our 60's and retired. It's just too hard to schlep gear for little or no pay. We don't play quite as often as bands that charge little money, but when we do play we get a minimum of $100 to $150 each. I have to drive 50 miles one way for practice and gigs and my V8 4x4 Pickup get's hungry.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back