Am I straining the cab here?

[fus10n]

Hi all,
I just bought a SWR 350x and an Avatar SB112 Neo, which just came two days ago and for the first time I tried the combination in my rehearsal today.

So I set my pre-amp gain at about 3 o'clock and the master at 12, because Dave from Avatar warned me not to go past 12 to avoid blowing the speaker. But somehow, the sound did not cut through too well. Yes my guitarist and drummer are a bit loud but I think he only turn about 30% out of his Fender Blues amp and we rehearse in a very tight room.

My question is: can I turn up the master to match the pre-amp level as suggested by the manual? The rating of the amp should almost match the speaker (240 W @ 8 ohm and 250 W for the speaker).

Thanks for all the help.

 

[SpamBot]

Turn up all you want, as long as you pay careful attention to your cab. If it is getting too much power, it will tell you. This will be manifested in farting/distortion.

 

[JimmyM]

Look around TB, and you will find a ton of posts that start off with, "I just blew my 112 cab." It's because people expect way too much out of their 112 cabs. And no offense, but you seem to be one of them. The current crop of 112 cabs are amazing for their ability to handle power, but in the end, they're only 112 cabs, and they have limitations, often way lower than their stated power handling, which only tells you the wattage that will melt your voice coil, and not the (much lower) wattage that your speaker will bottom out and start to make funny noises at.

Spambot's advice is sound, but I suspect that you're very close to the practical limitation of your cab already. If you want to go louder, add a second 112, then you can get a hefty volume boost without nearly as much danger of blowing as you're subjecting your cab to.

 

[Son of Bovril]

first try adjusting your eq to see if that will get you to cut through a bit better without sacrificing your tone too much (ie. try adding some more mids - adding low end will only use up your amp's headroom faster.)

if that doesn't work then as JimmyM said, maybe you are expecting too much from your cab I'm afraid...

 

[rbonner]

I don't care how much these manufacturers say these cabs will take, a 110, 112, 115, 118 will not make enough smoke for anything more than a jazz or blues combo in a small venue.

Sure 62 guys will post on here that their 108 cab makes enough smoke to play out in Shea Stadium and 167 other guys will post that with PA support they could play Woodstock. But this is not realistic.

I will also go on to say in anything more than a kid's garage band in hard rock or metal, without serious PA support, using anything less than 810's or two modern 15" in a well designed cabinet are NOT going to be enough and risks serious speaker damage.

This trend to have a bass cab that fits under your arm is just going to cost you more money in the long haul.

Experienced bassists, who have their own personal "SYSTEM" worked out maybe able to get by with their lightweight, one speaker rigs, but they are doing other things to get by with one speaker.

The manufacturers are doing the industry a serious disservice by not educating the customer, but then I suppose education is our job, they are just selling cabs.

BOB

 

[RickenBoogie]

Again, sound advice above. One speaker will never be enough in a rock band. I don't care how well matched up the wattages are. You will simply NEED to add another 12" spkr to your rig, or you WILL eventually blow that single 12, without a doubt. Seen it a hundred times, this year. Also, cut your low eq for the short haul, that'll eat up all your power.

 

[Implosion]

I don't care how much these manufacturers say these cabs will take, a 110, 112, 115, 118 will not make enough smoke for anything more than a jazz or blues combo in a small venue.

Sure 62 guys will post on here that their 108 cab makes enough smoke to play out in Shea Stadium and 167 other guys will post that with PA support they could play Woodstock. But this is not realistic.

I will also go on to say in anything more than a kid's garage band in hard rock or metal, without serious PA support, using anything less than 810's or two modern 15" in a well designed cabinet are NOT going to be enough and risks serious speaker damage.

This trend to have a bass cab that fits under your arm is just going to cost you more money in the long haul.

Experienced bassists, who have their own personal "SYSTEM" worked out maybe able to get by with their lightweight, one speaker rigs, but they are doing other things to get by with one speaker.

The manufacturers are doing the industry a serious disservice by not educating the customer, but then I suppose education is our job, they are just selling cabs.

BOB

Hear, hear.

Allthough I would add a 410 raised to the hight of chest-level to Bob's list of what you need.

 

[MIJ-VI]

Getting a big bass sound is all about moving big air.

More cone area and cab volume is required.

 

[Sundogue]

I don't care how much these manufacturers say these cabs will take, a 110, 112, 115, 118 will not make enough smoke for anything more than a jazz or blues combo in a small venue.

Sure 62 guys will post on here that their 108 cab makes enough smoke to play out in Shea Stadium and 167 other guys will post that with PA support they could play Woodstock. But this is not realistic.

I will also go on to say in anything more than a kid's garage band in hard rock or metal, without serious PA support, using anything less than 810's or two modern 15" in a well designed cabinet are NOT going to be enough and risks serious speaker damage.

This trend to have a bass cab that fits under your arm is just going to cost you more money in the long haul.

Experienced bassists, who have their own personal "SYSTEM" worked out maybe able to get by with their lightweight, one speaker rigs, but they are doing other things to get by with one speaker.

The manufacturers are doing the industry a serious disservice by not educating the customer, but then I suppose education is our job, they are just selling cabs.

BOB

I'd have to agree with you. Lightweight heads and cabs are great, no doubt about it. I am sure that most of these little rigs that are being claimed to handle outdoor gigs, are either not being used for rock music, or they are playing the elevator version of it.

I saw an awesome band a while back. Eight piece band and the bass player was very good and playing through a small 115 combo. They were a variety band and played all kinds of music. When they got to the rock music later in the evening, they played some great rock tunes, including AC/DC.

They played those songs note for note, but they didn't even come close to resembling a rock band. Despite playing the music to perfection they sounded like Muzak. Did his rig handle his "rock" gig? Sure did, if you like your rock music neutered. And most local bands I see these days play rock music with no balls to it at all. Nice, quiet stage volumes and PA's that are little more than quaint DJ rigs. How cute.

If I had used his rig in my band I would have shredded his 15" speaker before the first set was over, and we aren't even all that loud. I use two small 115 neo cabs and I need at least two 115's to play ANY rock gig I do, no matter how small a venue. I mean, hell...I play in a rock band. I'm not knocking these lightweight rigs at all, but realistically, anyone who says these micro rigs handle rock music on an outdoor gig must have some monster monitors to be able to get away with that...and I'm not even talking about what might be sent through the PA.

My guess is that a lot of bass players today just want to be able to hear the smallest subtleties in their playing and so most of their gigs are nice little shindigs at polite volumes. Rock music is neither polite nor is there anything subtle about it.

 

[JimmyM]

Certainly true. When I used my Markbass 112 combo, that's exactly how I felt about it...great for what it is, but I wouldn't play a loud rock gig with it.

 

[BassmanPaul]

I am in full agreement with the replies given here. It never ceases to amaze me what some players think constitutes a gig-able bass amp. What is the guitar player using? 2x12s? 4x12s? eight? These tend to be what guitar players favour. Yet you have bass players trying to compete with a 10 or a 2x10 or in this case one 12. All these speaker sizes will do is eventually blow!

Paul

 

[fus10n]

Thanks for the advice gentlemen. Well, my original plan was just like you said to add another 1 x 12 to my rig but that is not possible just yet as I don't have much in the $$ area. I haven't had my first gig ever to tell you the truth. It's gonna be this Sunday and that's an unpaid gig too since it is our first. And yes the guitarist use a 2 x 12 Fender Blues Deville.

I will see if I can borrow one of my friend's bass cab for now then to avoid the unwanted. I believe he has a SWR 2 x 10 Goliath Jr. I hope that would be enough for our first gig, it's a very tiny venue anyways.

Again, thank you gentlemen, your insights are well appreciated.

 

[JimmyM]

If you take your 112 and his 210 and vertically stack them, you might end up with a pretty decent temp rig you can do a little more crankage with, but ultimately I think the best solution is matching cabs, so start saving.

 

[rbonner]

Fus, I hope you can get it all sorted out. There's a lot of really good guys that chimed in on your issue here. I'm sure you will get it fixed; unfortuantely all it takes is throwing money at the problem.

Here's is something to think about, God gave us two arms. SO how I take that is, you either need to have cabs with a handle and one in each hand to balance the load, or a cab big enough that it takes two hands to wheel it.

The top issue, have fun... Busted parts are not fun.

BOB

 

[ninerfan]

Turn up all you want, as long as you pay careful attention to your cab. If it is getting too much power, it will tell you. This will be manifested in farting/distortion.

I have to respectfully disagree. I bought an Avatar 210 hoping that it could handle practices and small gigs. I was using it with my LMII. I had my gain and volume both at 12, which is what I needed to keep up with a loud guitarist and our drummer. I thought I'd be O.K. because I was running 500 watts into a 500 watt cab and only using 1/2 of the volume.
Practice went well. It was loud enough and kept up without complaining or farting out AT ALL. I brought it to our next practice, hooked it up and 1 of the speakers was sounded scratchy. I called Dave at Avatar (who is a great guy) and he told me the voice coil overheated and warped. Even though there were no signs that I was damaging the speaker, the continuous heat got so hot it eventually warped the voice coil. 1 warped, the other was fine.
The point is you can damage a speaker without knowing that it is being damaged. Also, you can damage a speaker running a matching watt head at only 1/2 volume.
My solution was to go with an Epi UL-310. A little bigger and 2 or 3 lbs. heavier, but an extra speaker to dispurse the abuse over. The Epi only draws around 400 watts (5.3 ohm cab) and the cab is rated at 750 watts. I was able to run it with gain and volume both at 12:00 and it worked the next time I used it.

 

[Rick Auricchio]

Hi all,
So I set my pre-amp gain at about 3 o'clock and the master at 12, because Dave from Avatar warned me not to go past 12 to avoid blowing the speaker.

Dave may know how to build speaker cabinets, but he doesn't understand amplifiers.

The setting on the master volume controls the required input level to achieve max power output. If you set it low, you need lots of input to push the amp fully. If you set it high, you don't need much input. If you slam the input hard enough, you can get full power at almost any setting---just depends how hard you hit it.

Since Dave has no idea of your input level, suggesting a master setting is meaningless.

 

[Nighttrain1127]

Most people make the same assumption that if the volume pot is at noon then you are only getting half the power out of the amp. Not so most amps get to max clean power around 1 or 2 oclock and any precieved additionla loudness is mostly the amp screaming and probably clipping like mad. And if you have the lows boosted and the low mids boosted the amp will run out of clean power much sooner. Not trying to make waves just pointing out some facts.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I had my gain and volume both at 12, which is what I needed to keep up with a loud guitarist and our drummer. I thought I'd be O.K. because I was running 500 watts into a 500 watt cab and only using 1/2 of the volume.

Aye, there's the (voice coil) rub. The position of the controls has no relation to the power output of the amp. Depending on a variety of factors you could have both the gain and master at 2 and be running at full power, you could have them both at 10 and be running at 1/10 power. And, while farting out is a sure sign of danger, long term heat buildup and thermal power compression leading to driver failure will take place at levels well below the threshold of farting.

My question is: can I turn up the master to match the pre-amp level as suggested by the manual?

Maybe, as I said above the knob position is no indication of output. But as everyone else has noted a single 1x12 is not a viable stage rig for anything larger than quiet coffee shop gigs.

 

[GearHeadBassMan]

I have to respectfully disagree. I bought an Avatar 210 hoping that it could handle practices and small gigs. I was using it with my LMII. I had my gain and volume both at 12, which is what I needed to keep up with a loud guitarist and our drummer. I thought I'd be O.K. because I was running 500 watts into a 500 watt cab and only using 1/2 of the volume.
Practice went well. It was loud enough and kept up without complaining or farting out AT ALL. I brought it to our next practice, hooked it up and 1 of the speakers was sounded scratchy. I called Dave at Avatar (who is a great guy) and he told me the voice coil overheated and warped. Even though there were no signs that I was damaging the speaker, the continuous heat got so hot it eventually warped the voice coil. 1 warped, the other was fine.
The point is you can damage a speaker without knowing that it is being damaged. Also, you can damage a speaker running a matching watt head at only 1/2 volume.
My solution was to go with an Epi UL-310. A little bigger and 2 or 3 lbs. heavier, but an extra speaker to dispurse the abuse over. The Epi only draws around 400 watts (5.3 ohm cab) and the cab is rated at 750 watts. I was able to run it with gain and volume both at 12:00 and it worked the next time I used it.

if you had been listening intently you would have heard something wrong with your cab long before warping. I garantee your cab was complaining before it bit the dust.

but that sucks man, Dave is an awesome dude to work with though so I'm sure he'll hook you up!

but yeah, 1x12 is not enough air movement to compete again a 2x12 guitar combo.

 

[Jojabeau]

I have a Avatar 212 and a Hartke LH1000 great gear BUT I DI to the board so I can keep the volume low. For Bar gigs I add a 210 but still DI. We do alot of Elvis Costello etc along with our own stuff, if I was covering ACDC I would use the 212 with a 410.