Ambient/Post-Rock/Textural bass playing thread

[ugly_bassplayer]

I have a sincere question for all of you.

Why do all these online bass lessons and teachers always talk groove and pocket playing and never actually approach this in the lessons presented?

« Groove, pocket.....bla bla......32nd note whole tone scale chop for 8 bars on high C string above 12th fret »

I learned pocket and groove playing along to tons of records and with a band. Vamping James Brown, Meters and hip hop lines for hours on end with a metronome pushing and pulling the beat. The Dilla feel was one of the hardest things I ever practiced « time » wise.

I always was a limited soloist (maybe my brain isn’t wired in that manner, I tried and practiced HARD to solo but eventually came to terms with my limitations.) so I concentrated my energy on other aspects of bass in college and university. To the great dismay of the jazz police who immediately cast me out. (add the fact that I gave up upright 1 year prior and played only electric bass.....but yet again I digress)


(I don’t search for these videos, they appear in my YT feed. Big brother sees all and knows all..... I click out of curiosity and maybe in the hope of learning something........sadly it never happens, and I’m not saying I have nothing to learn. On the contrary my chops suck big time atm........maybe these are aimed at a certain level of player developpement??

My 2 cents , sorry for the long post. Thank you for any of you input on the matter.
Sunday AM coffee finally kicking in

Side note: I’m not against highly complex and virtuoso lines IF THE SONG CALLS FOR IT!!!!. But I never locked in with a drummer playing 32nd notes, heck I can’t even play 32nd notes at all.....) Also not claiming to be the ultimate pocket groove player at all, there is always something to work on and get better.

 

[Bob_Ross]

Why do all these online bass lessons ...[snip]... never actually approach this in the lessons presented?

Yeah, I feel you. For me this is dodecaphonic techniques and/or post-tonal set theory using the Integer Model Of Pitch. I know I'm not gonna come across that in an episode of Scott's Bass Lesson or whatever the youtube channel du jour is, but I keep eagerly waiting for some genuinely curious TB member to ask "hey, how can I employ hexatonic rotations to spice up my serial bass lines?" so I can step in and share something that actually interests me.

Instead we get 300 variations on "Isn't D Dorian the same as C Ionian?" Yawn.

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

Yeah, I feel you. For me this is dodecaphonic techniques and/or post-tonal set theory using the Integer Model Of Pitch. I know I'm not gonna come across that in an episode of Scott's Bass Lesson or whatever the youtube channel du jour is, but I keep eagerly waiting for some genuinely curious TB member to ask "hey, how can I employ hexatonic rotations to spice up my serial bass lines?" so I can step in and share something that actually interests me.

Instead we get 300 variations on "Isn't D Dorian the same as C Ionian?" Yawn.

I flirted with dodecaphonic techniques and hexatonic concepts after I studied polytonal chord voicings when I was in school. Very fascinating and has incredible potential to develop new ideas. We studied multiple examples our teacher had composed plus some charts composed by I cant remember who.....maybe I can find them in my folder of old stuff.

Integer notation.....isnt that the # thing if I remember correctly. I did not study that but did alot classical notation and strict counterpoint, I know apples and oranges. Just sharing experiences.

I loved polychordal approaches to voicings and changes. Even if I needed a friends extra hands to voice them on piano.

Thank you for your input on the subject.
I hate the fact they "claim" to work on someconcept and never actually DO IT.....

Edit nerd alert. I remember trolling the counterpoint teacher (he was an good teacher but a complete @$$hole. ) By doing an entire exercise using Debussy parallel 5ths and 8ves. He was peeved beyond comprehension. That reaction made it all the more fun for all of us in class.

 

[monsterthompson]

The 0 Control is looking more interesting all the time.

 

[steubig]

in response to @ugly_bassplayer and @Bob_Ross . . .

online "lessons," people playing to recorded tracks on yt, etc. dunno, most of this stuff just does not connect with me at all. a lot of it just seems like "look at me" without much (any?) substance; it's all some weird "branding" designed to get followers. maybe cause i'm old and "know" some of this stuff . . . maybe it's just cause i'm old and don't get it. (but then, my rule of thumb is that 90% of what's on the internet is bs.)

imo, a lot of what passes for groove these days doesn't (see comment about being old).

but, all that yt stuff is probably a good reference for people of a certain developmental stage . . . after that, dunno. seems to me that almost no one (even in higher education, from what some people have told me recently) gets into the aesthetics of *why* you play—what your intent is. it's only about tech (which is easier to deal with).

modes: "d dorian being the same as c ionian" is only about the notes . . . it's not about the sound, which is where most people fail on the modes thing. you want to hear the difference? play c ionian, then c lydian, then c mixolydian; and then c dorian, c phrygian, then c aeolian. (rant off)


when you guys get into "hexatonic pitch rotations," etc., i'm completely at a loss.

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

in response to @ugly_bassplayer and @Bob_Ross . . .

online "lessons," people playing to recorded tracks on yt, etc. dunno, most of this stuff just does not connect with me at all. a lot of it just seems like "look at me" without much (any?) substance; it's all some weird "branding" designed to get followers. maybe cause i'm old and "know" some of this stuff . . . maybe it's just cause i'm old and don't get it. (but then, my rule of thumb is that 90% of what's on the internet is bs.)

imo, a lot of what passes for groove these days doesn't (see comment about being old).

but, all that yt stuff is probably a good reference for people of a certain developmental stage . . . after that, dunno. seems to me that almost no one (even in higher education, from what some people have told me recently) gets into the aesthetics of *why* you play—what your intent is. it's only about tech (which is easier to deal with).

modes: "d dorian being the same as c ionian" is only about the notes . . . it's not about the sound, which is where most people fail on the modes thing. you want to hear the difference? play c ionian, then c lydian, then c mixolydian; and then c dorian, c phrygian, then c aeolian. (rant off)


when you guys get into "hexatonic pitch rotations," etc., i'm completely at a loss.

Thank you for sharing your POV. I agree with a lot of what you said in regards to YouTube play alongs(I hate those with a passion....I mean REALLY hate those.)

As for online « lesson »I think most of us aren’t really the « target » market of those « brands » of online BS\content\material. Thus the lack of substance and\or interesting material. But , the intent might be an honest one....who knows.....I’m getting older and grumpier by the second.

In regards to the « modes » thing. I guess you just need to have that concept well explained theoretically and sonically. Like you said hearing the difference between C Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian....etc.....

I havent used any hexatonal or dodecaphonic stuff in years. But polychords are awesome and a concept that isn’t that hard to grasp if you have solid basic knowledge of harmony. (I’m guessing you know all about polychords anyways,)

Cheers

Side note: y’a the groove thing is pathetic, it’s not your old that’s showing. We need some P-funk to the rescue ASAP.

 

[remcult]

Thank you for sharing your POV. I agree with a lot of what you said in regards to YouTube play alongs(I hate those with a passion....I mean REALLY hate those.)

As for online « lesson »I think most of us aren’t really the « target » market of those « brands » of online BS\content\material. Thus the lack of substance and\or interesting material. But , the intent might be an honest one....who knows.....I’m getting older and grumpier by the second.

In regards to the « modes » thing. I guess you just need to have that concept well explained theoretically and sonically. Like you said hearing the difference between C Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian....etc.....

I havent used any hexatonal or dodecaphonic stuff in years. But polychords are awesome and a concept that isn’t that hard to grasp if you have solid basic knowledge of harmony. (I’m guessing you know all about polychords anyways,)

Cheers

Side note: y’a the groove thing is pathetic, it’s not your old that’s showing. We need some P-funk to the rescue ASAP.

kinda related: I took some fairly good lessons recently with a pro who's a really fine bass player, and who makes some solid music that I like. but almost immediately he asked if I was interested in being a pro or not. and whenever I asked about something that deviated from conventional bass playing, he pointed out how I might not use that on a gig. which is fair enough, many gigs wouldn't include some of the concepts I brought up. but I'd like to have greater command over the instrument as a musician, not just a bassist, and pointed out that if we worked on something like switching between different polyrhythms, it probably meant I'd have greater sense of rhythm and control in standard time.

I think the online lessons are trying to address the broadest possible audience, and the one that's most consistently replenished, beginners. and they're addressing them as bassists, not musicians. so they stick to the retreads of the same relatively basic/functional material. which makes sense, but I do wish there was more unconventional/advanced stuff being presented that wasn't solely related to bebop (not that there's anything wrong with that).

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

kinda related: I took some fairly good lessons recently with a pro who's a really fine bass player, and who makes some solid music that I like. but almost immediately he asked if I was interested in being a pro or not. and whenever I asked about something that deviated from conventional bass playing, he pointed out how I might not use that on a gig. which is fair enough, many gigs wouldn't include some of the concepts I brought up. but I'd like to have greater command over the instrument as a musician, not just a bassist, and pointed out that if we worked on something like switching between different polyrhythms, it probably meant I'd have greater sense of rhythm and control in standard time.

I think the online lessons are trying to address the broadest possible audience, and the one that's most consistently replenished, beginners. and they're addressing them as bassists, not musicians. so they stick to the retreads of the same relatively basic/functional material. which makes sense, but I do wish there was more unconventional/advanced stuff being presented that wasn't solely related to bebop (not that there's anything wrong with that).

I taught bass for a long time. The reason Bebop is used so frequently in academia is that it contains so much fundamental and advanced concepts in regards to technique and harmony.

It is very rich in content to put it in simple terms. This applies to all instruments, not just bass.

my 2 cents. That Freakn omnibook is a treasure box of exercises/practice for a lifetime. for conventional stuff anyways

edit: I should dust off my copy, my chops suck atm.

 

[steubig]

kinda related: I took some fairly good lessons recently with a pro who's a really fine bass player, and who makes some solid music that I like. but almost immediately he asked if I was interested in being a pro or not. and whenever I asked about something that deviated from conventional bass playing, he pointed out how I might not use that on a gig. which is fair enough, many gigs wouldn't include some of the concepts I brought up. but I'd like to have greater command over the instrument as a musician, not just a bassist, and pointed out that if we worked on something like switching between different polyrhythms, it probably meant I'd have greater sense of rhythm and control in standard time.

I think the online lessons are trying to address the broadest possible audience, and the one that's most consistently replenished, beginners. and they're addressing them as bassists, not musicians. so they stick to the retreads of the same relatively basic/functional material. which makes sense, but I do wish there was more unconventional/advanced stuff being presented that wasn't solely related to bebop (not that there's anything wrong with that).

it's totally lowest common denominator stuff. and basics do matter—a lot. but there are a lot of people who have massive knowledge/tech and no personality . . .

i think the whole teaching to be a gigging musician is an interesting situation:

first, most musicians will never make a living playing.

second, live gigs are becoming fewer and fewer—and who knows how this pandemic is going to further change that.

third, most of us didn't get into music to play casinos (i've done that. it's weird), etc., so why not talk about how to be creative? maybe even discuss how to develop a voice. seems to me that most people got into specific players due to their individual sensibilities. why not make that part of the deal? (this requires the student to be aware of that and want it, and the teacher to understand that and know how to do that. imo, this is super hard from both sides.)

to me the tech has to serve the *music you want to make*. if you (remcult) want to do music with poly rhythms, you *need* to know how to do it.

 

[emjazz]

third, most of us didn't get into music to play casinos (i've done that. it's weird), etc., so why not talk about how to be creative? maybe even discuss how to develop a voice. seems to me that most people got into specific players due to their individual sensibilities. why not make that part of the deal? (this requires the student to be aware of that and want it, and the teacher to understand that and know how to do that. imo, this is super hard from both sides.)

I was just speaking to Daniele Camarda about exactly this..and about setting up a panel of creative musicians to discuss this...it seems you and I need to talk.

 

[steubig]

I was just speaking to Daniele Camarda about exactly this..and about setting up a panel of creative musicians to discuss this...it seems you and I need to talk.

you and i were talking about this two weeks ago.

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

I was just speaking to Daniele Camarda about exactly this..and about setting up a panel of creative musicians to discuss this...it seems you and I need to talk.

This comes around full circle to « technical ability » must serve the musical idea or concept and not the other way around. School always falls short of the creative aspect of music IMO.

Creativity is « learned » on ones journey through musical endeavours.

IME, IMO....etc....

 

[remcult]

it's totally lowest common denominator stuff. and basics do matter—a lot. but there are a lot of people who have massive knowledge/tech and no personality . . .

i think the whole teaching to be a gigging musician is an interesting situation:

first, most musicians will never make a living playing.

second, live gigs are becoming fewer and fewer—and who knows how this pandemic is going to further change that.

third, most of us didn't get into music to play casinos (i've done that. it's weird), etc., so why not talk about how to be creative? maybe even discuss how to develop a voice. seems to me that most people got into specific players due to their individual sensibilities. why not make that part of the deal? (this requires the student to be aware of that and want it, and the teacher to understand that and know how to do that. imo, this is super hard from both sides.)

to me the tech has to serve the *music you want to make*. if you (remcult) want to do music with poly rhythms, you *need* to know how to do it.

I do think of teaching as a separate skill set from playing, and unfortunately not all people who teach music have both. Some people may be great players and personally creative, but may not be very engaging, or aren't very organized, etc.

I do appreciate the rare online presence who I find has a fair amount of prowess in both areas, like Damian Erskine, who has developed a distinctive approach, and is good at articulating his own way of understanding and playing music. He's actually started creating videos I've been meaning to check out at Bass Education, I'll report back if I end up signing up for them

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

@remcult

If you get tired of the Bebop thing. Look up some Bach counterpoint and 4 part chorales.
Insane amount of information in there. Even the « polyrhythmic aspect » you talked about is very prevalent in the counterpoints where the melodies go from one voice to another like butter. And the harmonic aspect.....HOLY $HIT!!!!!!

That JS dude is not from this dimension.

 

[remcult]

@remcult

If you get tired of the Bebop thing. Look up some Bach counterpoint and 4 part chorales.
Insane amount of information in there. Even the « polyrhythmic aspect » you talked about is very prevalent in the counterpoints where the melodies go from one voice to another like butter. And the harmonic aspect.....HOLY $HIT!!!!!!

That JS dude is not from this dimension.

I was just working on the first cello suite last night. it's really incredibly beautiful, and such a great exercise from a technical perspective

 

[Bob_Ross]

YouTube play alongs(I hate those with a passion....I mean REALLY hate those.)

My biggest bone of contention about those: When did the word "transcriptions" come to mean Music-Minus-One play-along videos? Any time I've gone searching the internet for a transcription -- meaning the written notation -- of a piece or a solo I have to wade through three dozen hacks in their bedroom playing along with Mitch before I can find a single line of staff paper.

==========

why not talk about how to be creative? maybe even discuss how to develop a voice. seems to me that most people got into specific players due to their individual sensibilities. why not make that part of the deal?

When I was in high school (mid- to late-1970s) I made spending money by teaching guitar lessons. After two or three years of that I swore I would never teach music again. There was just nothing about what *I* enjoyed about music that seemed to be part of the experience...and/or nothing that my students really wanted to learn that aligned strongly with my interests.

Fast-forward to some time in the mid-1990s, I'm doing a gig of creative instrumental comprovisational mayhem with Debris at a tiny venue in Cambridge MA, and after our performance a guy comes up to me and asks "Do you teach bass lessons."

"No" I said, instantly and emphatically.

But he persisted: "I'm not interested in remedial stuff, I know where the notes are on the neck. I'm just interested in learning different ways to think about playing bass, and from what I just heard you have a unique perspective that I'd love to learn more about."

Okay, color me flattered. Plus he insisted he would never ask me to show him a box pattern for a three octave major scale, he just wanted to pick my brain. And he could pay in cash. How could I say no?

He only lasted as a student for maybe three months; both our schedules got in the way. But for those three months I was temporarily convinced that maybe there were people out there interested in learning about music in a way that I could relate to...and that maybe teaching music was a way of imparting genuine curiosity and exploring unique and creative aesthetics without getting bogged down in pedantic rote technique.

Well, that was 25+ years ago, and I'm back to being a skeptical, jaded old fart. Oh well...

==========

btw @steubig when you mention "maybe 'cuz I'm old and know stuff" ...I think it's not so much age; it's experience. Every youtube lesson [sic] I've every sat through suffered from the fact that the person in the video presumes to have more experience than anyone watching the video. Which kinda defeats the purpose -- or eliminates the possibility, really -- of sharing musical discoveries with like-minded creative individuals.

 

[steubig]

@Bob_Ross

i actually said “know” (as in maybe not) and old in that i don’t partake of these things like younger folks do (different mindset).

nice to have someone interested in the unusual, even if just for a short time.

i usually turn those vids after a short time. life is too short.

 

[lordradish]

I have a sincere question for all of you.

Why do all these online bass lessons and teachers always talk groove and pocket playing and never actually approach this in the lessons presented?

« Groove, pocket.....bla bla......32nd note whole tone scale chop for 8 bars on high C string above 12th fret »

I learned pocket and groove playing along to tons of records and with a band. Vamping James Brown, Meters and hip hop lines for hours on end with a metronome pushing and pulling the beat. The Dilla feel was one of the hardest things I ever practiced « time » wise.

I always was a limited soloist (maybe my brain isn’t wired in that manner, I tried and practiced HARD to solo but eventually came to terms with my limitations.) so I concentrated my energy on other aspects of bass in college and university. To the great dismay of the jazz police who immediately cast me out. (add the fact that I gave up upright 1 year prior and played only electric bass.....but yet again I digress)


(I don’t search for these videos, they appear in my YT feed. Big brother sees all and knows all..... I click out of curiosity and maybe in the hope of learning something........sadly it never happens, and I’m not saying I have nothing to learn. On the contrary my chops suck big time atm........maybe these are aimed at a certain level of player developpement??

My 2 cents , sorry for the long post. Thank you for any of you input on the matter.
Sunday AM coffee finally kicking in

Side note: I’m not against highly complex and virtuoso lines IF THE SONG CALLS FOR IT!!!!. But I never locked in with a drummer playing 32nd notes, heck I can’t even play 32nd notes at all.....) Also not claiming to be the ultimate pocket groove player at all, there is always something to work on and get better.

Because the wankery is 'entertaining' and gets the clicks. I do find it very frustrating trying to find good groove tutorials, instead it's that Davey505 or whatever his name is, doing things that impressed the hell out of me as a 20 year old and make me roll my eyes, now. And very few of these things are 'lessons' by any metric.

 

[smperry]

Hi all,

I'm thinking about getting a Red Panda Particle, RP Tensor, Montreal Assembly Count to Five, or Chase Bliss Mood.

Anyone want to express an opinion about which one of these I should get? You can likely tell what I'm looking for based on that list. I already have traditional looping covered, so it's just for the granular/weird/glitchy/pretty stuff. If there's something I should be looking at instead of these, I'm all ears. I'll probably need to buy used.

Thanks in advance.

 

[monsterthompson]

Hi all,

I'm thinking about getting a Red Panda Particle, RP Tensor, Montreal Assembly Count to Five, or Chase Bliss Mood.

Anyone want to express an opinion about which one of these I should get? You can likely tell what I'm looking for based on that list. I already have traditional looping covered, so it's just for the granular/weird/glitchy/pretty stuff. If there's something I should be looking at instead of these, I'm all ears. I'll probably need to buy used.

Thanks in advance.

Any thoughts about an Empress Zoia? It’s probably going to be out of your price range and it requires a desire to wire up your own effects patches or download existing ones from patchstorage.com

The others here should have good advice on what you listed.