Ambient/Post-Rock/Textural bass playing thread

[lordradish]

@lordradish

funny thing about sanborn, for the most part i agree, but he studied with julius hemphill, and was instrumental in getting a julius album done (diminutive mysteries) and played on it.

he also hosted night music in the 80s, which was pretty eclectic and forward looking.

his solo starts at around 3:00 (and this is a killer band):

I think, in all honesty, like so many in the smooth jazz domain, they know what they're doing but it certainly isn't shown to its full potential. His tone makes me want to puke, for the most part. Reminds me of the same things about Clarence Clemons' tone that I couldn't stand. That's not a technical thing, it's an aesthetic.

 

[Bob_Ross]

It's funny, but the instant I saw @lordradish mention David Sanborn's name I thought "oh, he's probably never seen that episode of Night Music when Sanborn sat in with Tim Berne's band!" ...and then like clockwork, ^^^.

I thought the word "coherent" was appropriate, not a value-judgement. Further qualifying it in a subsequent post with "deliberate" helped. Perhaps "intentional" or "well-reasoned" are qualities along those same lines that one would hope to convey with one's improvisation, no?

 

[lordradish]

It's funny, but the instant I saw @lordradish mention David Sanborn's name I thought "oh, he's probably never seen that episode of Night Music when Sanborn sat in with Tim Berne's band!" ...and then like clockwork, ^^^.

I thought the word "coherent" was appropriate, not a value-judgement. Further qualifying it in a subsequent post with "deliberate" helped. Perhaps "intentional" or "well-reasoned" are qualities along those same lines that one would hope to convey with one's improvisation, no?

Funny, that band is killer, but again, that Sanborn tone, I can't unhear it. I'm just blown away by an actual American tv show showing competently played jazz.

I don't even know if improv has to be intentional. I think, in the case of my electronic music, I want it to sound intentional. That piece that I posted, earlier today. Other than D minor and the tones I chose for each synth, I didn't have any guidelines other than not wanting it to sound haphazard and chaotic. Then again, the kind of ambient music I like shouldn't really sound chaotic, in the first place. But chaos is still an intention, right? If you decide to move from one noisemaking device to another, chaotic as it all sounds, it's still intentional, right?

It's so hard talking about these meta things and using the most effective communication, because as artists, all of these things are so personal, and in some ways, are just hard to convey. "Abrasiveness" or "intention" or "order" likely has different connotations for all of us.

I have another great meta topic to bring up, but I want to let this one run its course, because I love the hell out of reading all of your takes, because they are just so damn different than my own.

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

I was discussing this a short while ago with @steubig.
I tend to approach my “noise” with more of a musique concrète mixed with free form improv. (Edit......Jeez that last phrase seems pretentious when I read it back, certainly is not my intent at all.....)
Less in the manner of beating metal trash with hammers and contact mics, or punching down walls.
Some of it is very calculated and some of it is free form improv, all in the same piece of music.

So then comes the meta questions I constantly ponder:
What is noise? (Or musique..... )
Is it just a certain sound that we culturally associate as « abrasive » or « harsh », unpleasant????
Is intentional noise valid?
Is unintentional noise valid?
Same goes for « chaos », when and how can it be called valid or just random crap??
Either way, why?
Does self expression come first or does one need absolutely be « schooled » in the rudiments of music??
How about the caveman beating on a trash can with all his inner power and rage till his knuckles bleed. To me that is emotion in it’s most primordial form. But again, is it musical?

Ok, now you guys know why my brain never stops spinning.

 

[Spectrum]

I was discussing this a short while ago with @steubig.
I tend to approach my “noise” with more of a musique concrète mixed with free form improv. (Edit......Jeez that last phrase seems pretentious when I read it back, certainly is not my intent at all.....)
Less in the manner of beating metal trash with hammers and contact mics, or punching down walls.
Some of it is very calculated and some of it is free form improv, all in the same piece of music.

So then comes the meta questions I constantly ponder:
What is noise? (Or musique..... )
Is it just a certain sound that we culturally associate as « abrasive » or « harsh », unpleasant????
Is intentional noise valid?
Is unintentional noise valid?
Same goes for « chaos », when and how can it be called valid or just random crap??
Either way, why?
Does self expression come first or does one need absolutely be « schooled » in the rudiments of music??
How about the caveman beating on a trash can with all his inner power and rage till his knuckles bleed. To me that is emotion in it’s most primordial form. But again, is it musical?

Ok, now you guys know why my brain never stops spinning.

I started a thread about that a few years ago: Your opinion on "noise" music

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

I started a thread about that a few years ago: Your opinion on "noise" music

I know. I posted in it. See the last pages.

 

[steubig]

re "coherent": to me it can be a loaded word. (btw, i just looked up the word and incoherent as well. interesting in light of this.)

seems to me in/coherence can be either on the creator or audience side. imo, a lot of it comes down to understanding: it is in incoherent gibberish or a language i don't understand? (imagine mayans and spaniards trying to talk in the early 1500s.)

in the case of an art form, i think there's the "language i don't understand" and the "language i don't like."

if chaos is what one means by incoherent, that can be something different. i have friends who basically like chaos as an aesthetic. it's not my thing. now they can tell you *why* they do it and the antecedents of what they do (and some of these guys are very heady guys), but it's not something that i want to hear (and i'm not sure that they *do it well*.)

so . . . perhaps they're being "coherent," but i just don't give a fu¢k.

but there's also people who say "incoherent" as a pejorative against modern art; it might be "incoherent" to *them* . . .

semi-aside: ever see early jackson pollock? excellent draughtsman, good compositional chops (he studied with thomas hart benton). very realistic stuff. then went into surrealistic totem kind of stuff. eventually he does the drip paintings. "my kid could do that" . . . well no. imo, there is underlying composition in pollock's drip paintings (whether conscious or unconscious—which might have been part of the point?). whether or not you like them is a different story.

so is that chaos or coherence? coherent chaos?

so when *i* hear people playing "chaos," i want a feeling of underlying form and intent—which is harder to achieve, imo.

recently i've been listening to a duo album (obliquities) of evan parker and barry guy. some people would probably say it's incoherent . . . i hear amazing communication, and beautiful ideas, gestures and timbres.

and 20 years ago i may not have been into it at all. (which doubles back, perhaps, to my being able to understand or just being in the right space.)

admittedly, usage of words like "coherent" when talking about improv is something that pushes my buttons—which is possibly more on me.

 

[Spectrum]

I know. I posted in it. See the last pages.

Oh, yeah, I forgot about the thread revival and the dust-up with Captain Square and his Opinion lol

 

[steubig]

I was discussing this a short while ago with @steubig.
I tend to approach my “noise” with more of a musique concrète mixed with free form improv. (Edit......Jeez that last phrase seems pretentious when I read it back, certainly is not my intent at all.....)
Less in the manner of beating metal trash with hammers and contact mics, or punching down walls.
Some of it is very calculated and some of it is free form improv, all in the same piece of music.

So then comes the meta questions I constantly ponder:
What is noise? (Or musique..... )
Is it just a certain sound that we culturally associate as « abrasive » or « harsh », unpleasant????
Is intentional noise valid?
Is unintentional noise valid?
Same goes for « chaos », when and how can it be called valid or just random crap??
Either way, why?
Does self expression come first or does one need absolutely be « schooled » in the rudiments of music??
How about the caveman beating on a trash can with all his inner power and rage till his knuckles bleed. To me that is emotion in it’s most primordial form. But again, is it musical?

Ok, now you guys know why my brain never stops spinning.

i think it all comes down to the skill with which one uses the material.

there are people who do noise, ambient, tonal, jazz well . . . and those that don't.

or perhaps there are people you like who do it and others who you don't.

when you have unintentional noise, what do you do with it? fold it in to the intentional noise?

 

[steubig]

@Spectrum and @ugly_bassplayer

i remember that thread. that guy rusty a**.

whooooo.

 

[steubig]

one last thing (ha, as if!):

@lordradish

the interesting things for me is how to create the balance between being "in charge" and "being loose and in the moment."

 

[steubig]

I think, in all honesty, like so many in the smooth jazz domain, they know what they're doing but it certainly isn't shown to its full potential. His tone makes me want to puke, for the most part. Reminds me of the same things about Clarence Clemons' tone that I couldn't stand. That's not a technical thing, it's an aesthetic.

sanborn had a studio career before the smoove jazz thing. a lot of guys just have good hair.

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

i think it all comes down to the skill with which one uses the material.

there are people who do noise, ambient, tonal, jazz well . . . and those that don't.

or perhaps there are people you like who do it and others who you don't.

when you have unintentional noise, what do you do with it? fold it in to the intentional noise?

Well put.

When I meant unintentional, i was thinking along the lines of field recordings n such.

Nature sounds like a water fall or wind blowing across different objects. (So many wind textures, its nuts. Pitch, grain, intensity......ok brain....slow down now)

Or birds chirping, is the bird intentionally singing, communicating or is it ingrained in its genetic code to simply .....chirp/sing.

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

one last thing (ha, as if!):

@lordradish

the interesting things for me is how to create the balance between being "in charge" and "being loose and in the moment."

An eternal conundrum

 

[steubig]

Well put.

When I meant unintentional, i was thinking along the lines of field recordings n such.

Nature sounds like a water fall or wind blowing across different objects. (So many wind textures, its nuts. Pitch, grain, intensity......ok brain....slow down now)

Or birds chirping, is the bird intentionally singing, communicating or is it ingrained in its genetic code to simply .....chirp/sing.

then you're applying intention to the "unintentional."

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

then you're applying intention to the "unintentional."

Exactly!!!!
You reading my mind!??!?!?
(Puts on tin foil hat)

But, what if you are just alone in nature listening. Not recording anything.
Now that I have pondered for years......
The eternal "if a tree falls in the woods" thing.

But here's a twist, it's impossible not to record since the brain is assimilating all the sounds, thus naturally "recording" for the memory. So synapses and brain connections are the tape machine.

 

[steubig]

Exactly!!!!
You reading my mind!??!?!?
(Puts on tin foil hat)

But, what if you are just alone in nature listening. Not recording anything.
Now that I have pondered for years......
The eternal "if a tree falls in the woods" thing.

that's called luxuriating in existence.



being the western dude that i am, sometimes i try to figure out how to *use* it.

and i have been reading your mind. tinfoil won't do it.

 

[lordradish]

one last thing (ha, as if!):

@lordradish

the interesting things for me is how to create the balance between being "in charge" and "being loose and in the moment."

Same here, bud.

 

[lordradish]

I was discussing this a short while ago with @steubig.
I tend to approach my “noise” with more of a musique concrète mixed with free form improv. (Edit......Jeez that last phrase seems pretentious when I read it back, certainly is not my intent at all.....)
Less in the manner of beating metal trash with hammers and contact mics, or punching down walls.
Some of it is very calculated and some of it is free form improv, all in the same piece of music.

So then comes the meta questions I constantly ponder:
What is noise? (Or musique..... )
Is it just a certain sound that we culturally associate as « abrasive » or « harsh », unpleasant????
Is intentional noise valid?
Is unintentional noise valid?
Same goes for « chaos », when and how can it be called valid or just random crap??
Either way, why?
Does self expression come first or does one need absolutely be « schooled » in the rudiments of music??
How about the caveman beating on a trash can with all his inner power and rage till his knuckles bleed. To me that is emotion in it’s most primordial form. But again, is it musical?

Ok, now you guys know why my brain never stops spinning.

Most of these questions can be answered by my definition of music - manipulation of sound with the intention of expression. I know that's pretty broad, and it allows for almost anything. But it still makes the most sense to me. There's a lot of music I don't like, but I don't deny it's music.

 

[steubig]

^^^^works for me.