ambiguous chord symbol

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by Howard K, Feb 20, 2004.

  1. Howard K

    Howard K

    Feb 14, 2002
    The attached is from the dodgy real book, it's a sheet for cherokee.

    The sheet has:

    major 7 chords marked as "Xmaj7"
    7th chords marked as "X7"
    minor seventh chords as "X-7"

    ...and then an F+7 ???

    So, what do you think that chord is? I havent got a copy of the tune (yet) so I cant listen and figure it out.

  2. moley


    Sep 5, 2002
    Hampshire, UK
    I don't know the tune, but I assume it means F7+, i.e. F7#5, i.e. F7 augmented. F A C# Eb.
  3. Slot


    Oct 17, 2003
    Sydney - The Shire
    F+7 definitely equals an F7 with an augmented 5th

    Anytime you see a random (+) like that, always assume that it refers to a sharpened 5th. Unless of course the chord is written something like F7(+9), which in that case, it would be signalling a sharpened 9th

    + = augmented/sharp
  4. Howard K

    Howard K

    Feb 14, 2002
    excrement, thanks guys

    aug 5th, no problemo :)
  5. stephanie


    Nov 14, 2000
    Scranton, PA
    Isn't another exception the minor major chord (minor chord with a major 7th)? Example Fm7+ = F Ab C E. I see it like that sometimes instead of using the little triangle.
  6. Slot


    Oct 17, 2003
    Sydney - The Shire
    yep, steph. I dont come across them all that often, but yup, perfectly legit


    With minor chords, seem as though there is no existing minor triad that contains a sharpened 5th, the (+) would sort of automatically be indicating the values of the upper extensions within the chord ....rather than the values within the base triad, as is the case with major augmented chords

    So, Fmi+7 is a perfectly legit symbal ...although, if i was writing it in a song of mine, i would probably write it as something like Fmi(+7), or Fmi +7, or have the (+) and the (7) written in smaller writing ....just so that it was a little clearer for the newbs, that the (+) belonged to the (7)
  7. Phil Smith

    Phil Smith Mr Sumisu 2 U

    May 30, 2000
    Peoples Republic of Brooklyn
    Creator of: iGigBook for Android/iOS
    Every Minor Major 7 chord I've seen is notated as Xmin(maj7), Xmi(ma7). I've haven't seen the + used with anything other than to denote an augmented triad or a dominant chord with a sharp 5. The Fm7+ notation is ambiguous, but I doubt if most players would think that was F Ab C E and would interpret it as F Ab C# Eb.
  8. Slot


    Oct 17, 2003
    Sydney - The Shire
    sorry if i sound too perdantic

    but Fmin7+ doesnt exist, however, Fmin+7 does.

    Just like with any other chord symbal, the flat, or the sharp symbol, must always precede the desired extension

    btw ....lovin' the website in your sig, phil. i actually used some charts from it for a gig last night. so thx[​IMG] :D
  9. bassmantele


    Jul 22, 2003
    Boston MA USA

    I"m with him. I've read a lot of muisc and I've never seen the + sign used for a minor major seventh chord. It may show up but I'd definitely call it bad practice.
  10. Richard Lindsey

    Richard Lindsey

    Mar 25, 2000
    Metro NYC
    I agree with both of you guys. I've never seen Fm+7 for Fm(maj7) either.

    Furthermore, I think it would be technically wrong, because to me the + should be used for augmented intervals. D# in a G7 is the augmented 5th; D# in a C7 is the augmented 9th. But E natural in an Fm is not an augmented anything; it's just the natural (unflatted) 7. So I'd say +7 is inappropriate for this usage.
  11. travatron4000


    Dec 27, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Why all this talk of an Fm whatever when that's not the chord in question. I think its FAC#Eb. the augemented dominate V. Also, you see the C# in the melody with that chord.

  12. Slot


    Oct 17, 2003
    Sydney - The Shire
    I tend to agree

    Im positive ive seen a +7 chord in my travels though

    The way i would explain it is, in a minor chord, the "natural" 7 of a minor tonality is a flattened 7th, therefore an augmented 7 would equate to the E.

    But yea, i wouldnt bet my house on this one. It could be someone elses mistake that im trying to justify. I personally, would never write the chord using a + symbol, but im not convinced that it would be "wrong" to do so either
  13. stephanie


    Nov 14, 2000
    Scranton, PA
    Eh sorry for all the confusion. I was referring to Fm7+ not Fm+7. I found that chord when reading up on harmonization of the Jazz Melodic scale Nothing to do with an augmented chord. I was just replying to Slot's first post.

    Back to your normally scheduled thread... :D