Amp output into PA vs. A DI

[Andrew Shissler]

Hello all,

Long time bass player here... I've finally amassed good equipment, but I'm still pretty ignorant to sound quality, recording techniques and stage sound. - I guess now that I've got decent gear, I need to catch up on these things and pay better attention to them.

I have a David Eden Traveler 400 head powering 2 4x10's for 400w @ 4 ohm. As I get older, I'm getting pretty tired of hauling those cabs around and hoisting them up on stage! - I know the Eden has a recording line out, and because it's solid state (with a tube pre-amp) that I can run a low impeadence line out from the back of he head and leave my cabinets at home if I want to utilize my band's/the house's PA. I've done this, and it's a back-saver! - With in-ear monitors, I can hear myself on stage just fine. I've recorded uing this same setup as well.

Here's my question:

Is there any reason I should get a DI box, such as a Sansamp, Ampeg, or MXR? (These would be the price ranges if I were to get one) - Or should I just keep doing what I'm doing? - Any advantage to owning one? I've heard that the lines out of amps can be unreliable and problematic for house sound guys... - But I assume that David Eden is pretty good stuff.

Part 2: My 2 main stage basses are a Fender Jazz (passive) and a Yamaha 5 string (active) - I've heard that the DI boxes don't always get along well with active electronics. (With the Ampeg actually having to be opened up and an internal switch flipped to make that change, which would be a real hastle on stage). (Or that I need a passive DI for active basses, and an active one for passive basses - and I don't want to buy two of them)

I appreciate the feedback - and consider my desired budget when answering. - I know there are 5 zillion dollar solutions here that make everything sound perfect! - They're not for me!

Thanks for the help.

 

[Geri O]

In my pro audio mixing days, I used to have a catalog of reasons that bassists should use an external DI and how it can be used so that any pedals and effects won't be excluded in the signal chain.

Nowadays, amplifier line outs are a lot better designed and work just fine if one doesn't want to spend money on an external DI. Plus, I really don't care, so why would I be on a crusade for the use of external DIs?

I bought and use (in fact, almost never leave home without) a REDDI Tube DI. It sounds positively awesome in my in-ear monitors and when recording. However, in smaller situations, the line out of my Mesa Subway WD-800 sounds rather good, in fact, familiar (inside story). So it's fine to use. No need for a $800 tube DI in a 100-seat club.

All this to say, if your amplifier's line out is working and it sounds fine to (A) you, and (B) the sound guys, then save yer money and stay with the line out.

PS, using your amp's line out will save you the worry of sifting through a lot of the utter BS you "hear" about the use of DIs.

 

[drpepper]

...I've done this, and it's a back-saver! - With in-ear monitors, I can hear myself on stage just fine. I've recorded uing this same setup as well...Is there any reason I should get a DI box...

Any advantage to owning one?...

I've heard that the DI boxes don't always get along well with active electronics...

DIs on amp heads can be problematic for FOH for various reasons (noisy, lack of ground or level controls that come to issue, etc.)...yours is not.

*Any* advantage to owning a DI box is pretty broad and depends on personal perspectives on what constitutes a worthwhile benefit. If you consider it a benefit to have something to be prepared for a potential situation that may or may not occur (without regard to likelihood), then you can find a reason to buy quite a bit of gear.

Active/Passive switches on amps and DIs are arguably mislabeled. All amps and DIs don't label them as "Active/Passive". They simply allow reduction of input gain by some fixed amount (15db, 10db, 9 or whatever). Output of basses can vary to the point that some passive basses are hotter than some active basses. Further, some active preamps have variable output (inside the control cavity) that can be used to match gain on multiple basses.

 

[musicman7722]

Well if your amp heads DI out is set to pre then why bring the head as it is doing nothing. If it is set to post and both you and FOH like the sound then use it but a decent DI/AMP modeler is a lot lighter to bring then an amplifier head.

 

[4Mal]

If it a show where I'm providing sound, If I don't know you or your amp (and it's maintenance history...) I'm probably asking you to use my DI. In my case it is Radial or Countryman so nothing that should be objectionable.

There are a few reasons for it but chiefly,
I do a lot of small single stage festivals where there is very limited time for changeovers.
I don't want to dig around is someone's rack rig to get to the DI...
I don't want to inadvertently send phantom to your amp. Might not be a problem but... if it is, it's going to be a large one...
Given I'm insisting on pre EQ DI, there is no real difference between after your pedalboard or after your input.

What I'm really hoping for is that you'll use the backline bass rig, which is already set to go... same with your drummer and the drum kit. Hopefully he / she brings their fav snare and brass...

As far as not a gazillion dollah solution, that one didn't cost you a cent. No serious sound guy doesn't carry a full compliment of DI's and understand how and when to use them.

I personally DI from my pedal board with a DI that any sound guy will look at and say yeah... even so, if they really want me to use theirs.. I'm fine. FOH is there job today. Mine is to have my head in the performance.

I by the way am about to swap my Radial out for a Sushibox Finally DI. I think it's going to be a killer piece as it has a high voltage 12ax7 based tube gain stage based on his Space Heater design. I have the Space Heater and it is very cool. It brings a level of tube warmth and electricity that in general, DI's do not. I'll add a couple of the Finally DI's into my soundguy kit I expect.

 

[SteveC]

You can certainly keep doing what you're doing. I'm sure the Eden DI is just fine. The Eden head isn't that big or heavy. All (95%) my gigs are DI/IEM/Silent Stage. I use a REDDI tube DI and it sounds amazing. Not the lightest or smallest DI, but after doing a lot of listening, I think it's the best - whatever that means, right?

 

[s0c9]

I by the way am about to swap my Radial out for a Sushibox Finally DI. I think it's going to be a killer piece as it has a high voltage 12ax7 based tube gain stage based on his Space Heater design. I have the Space Heater and it is very cool. It brings a level of tube warmth and electricity that in general, DI's do not. I'll add a couple of the Finally DI's into my soundguy kit I expect.

Interested in getting your feedback on the Finally. Been looking for an Ampeg SVTDI for some time, but they are rare and pricey. The Noble was out of my price range (far fewer gigs) so I went with the Khan VTDI - he being on the Ampeg SVTDI team. Done 4 gigs with it and now leave my amp/cab behind and go DI to PA, fronted by tuner, MXR87 Comp and TC Corona Chorus on pedal board. Not cheap but a stellar tube DI.

Did sound for a band [Dec 17 - Corp Xmas Party] with Miranda Lambert’s + Carrie Underwood’s former bassist (Aden Bubeck). He posted new/old side-by-side pic on the 2 DI’s on his instagram page. Both bass and fiddle sounded awesome.

 

[4Mal]

@s0c9 you know the gain stage is same as the Space Heater right ? I have one of the recent Hand Wired Space Heaters and it rocks!

 

[Zbysek]

I can see several advantages in getting a preamp/DI box:

One less item to carry
A preamp/DI box will be smaller and lighter than your amp. It will fit on your pedalboard (if you use one), or in your gigbag.

Additional features
A preamp might have additional features which you don't find on your amp, such as tuner, mute, HPF, LPF, cab simulation, compression, dirt, etc.

Two channels
You can get two channels preamp which would be useful for switching between your two basses.

Power
Pasive DI boxes need no power at all, active DI boxes and some preamps can be powered via phantom power from FOH. You don't have to worry about power for those.

Protection against phantom power
Some amps can be damaged if they receive phantom power from the mixing console. I don't know whether this applies to your amp. Phantom power is no issue for DI boxes and most (if not all) current preamps.

Reliability
Your amp is probably 10+ years old (my guess). You might feel safer to rely on newer (and less complex) device when using in-ear monitoring.

 

[Zbysek]

Part 2: My 2 main stage basses are a Fender Jazz (passive) and a Yamaha 5 string (active) - I've heard that the DI boxes don't always get along well with active electronics. (With the Ampeg actually having to be opened up and an internal switch flipped to make that change, which would be a real hastle on stage). (Or that I need a passive DI for active basses, and an active one for passive basses - and I don't want to buy two of them)

You will not need to buy two of them, don't worry. There are many devices which would work well with both of your basses...

 

[eliascalles]

Not sure what kinds of venues you're playing, but any decent one or proper festival stage will already provide a DI for the bass and they're going to want to use their DI regardless of what you have on your pedalboard . that said if you want a preamp/di on your board for the sound it provides,multi channel inputs to ease bass changes etc go for it. def don't need to be dragging that head with you to gigs where you knoww you'll go direct. I have a few of the sansamps I can recommend them, they are very well built and not that expensive.

 

[Jack]

If, for some reason, you decide to switch then Eden used to make a preamp pedal. Sounds like Eden, cheap to buy used. If the head is working though then why bother?

 

[s0c9]

Not sure what kinds of venues you're playing, but any decent one or proper festival stage will already provide a DI for the bass and they're going to want to use their DI regardless of what you have on your pedalboard . that said if you want a preamp/di on your board for the sound it provides,multi channel inputs to ease bass changes etc go for it. def don't need to be dragging that head with you to gigs where you knoww you'll go direct. I have a few of the sansamps I can recommend them, they are very well built and not that expensive.

I have yet to play at a venue - or, as a FOH guy (including festivals) - where I've been asked to use, or insisted someone use the "House" DI. Yeah, it probably happens, but I've not ever experienced it!

If they have a simple, cheap DI then I might suggest they use one of my Radials instead. Their call. I will do what I can with their DI, but at the Festival level with band changeouts and live audio - unless there's noise/buzz - there's not a lot of difference the punters will notice!
And, if they have anything that's a tone shaping DI (eg: the Eden above) I will happily take an XLR feed from it.

For the last 10 yrs I've given the House the DI from the back of my amps (Ampeg and Mesa) and now they get an XLR from by Khan VTDI - pictured above!
No complaints nor pushback yet!

 

[Hundred proof]

I had a situation once at a gig in Oxford Mississippi (Ole Miss county) where the sound guy didn’t like the signal from my Mark Bass LM II. I use a radial JDI now never an objection to using it.