Then the problem is either in the PA not being up to the challenge of reproducing the sound, or more likely in your ability to get it to do what you want it to do.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Amp vs PA + Sub
- Thread starter caballero59
- Start date
Agreed. The discussion has changed gears a couple of times. We started with "mud, conflict with kick drum" which has morphed into a scenario where the OP, solo'd and with what appears to be some respectable gear, can not structure a decent tone via the PA. I'm not there and any further suggestions are akin to throwing darts blindfolded and hoping one sticks.
If in the same boat, I'd hire a local sound guy, set-up all your gear same as a live venue but in a rehearsal space / controlled environment, and have him straighten it out. Spend the bucks and take plenty of notes.
Edit: all band members present and ready-to-roll. Good chance you have multiple issues...get your money's worth.
Riis
Last edited:
That's right. The PA is good but I'm haven't been able to EQ it to sound like the amp. Regarding complexity, feeding the mixer from the amp is the same complexity as feeding the amp from the mixer. It may be a poor choice but the reasons are probably not complexity.
One thing you might clarify - where are you mixing from?
FOH systems sound very different from the stage than they do from the audience. It’s why we trust our sound techs to adjust our signal for the room. At their best, the tech can truly “mix” the inputs and optimize all of them with a different perspective from the players’ - the audience’s. That can be a very different mix from the stage mix. And a bass signal sent DI from any source is only a starting point for a competent mix.
I’ve mixed a thousand shows from stage, successful only because I also spent enough time out front to (mostly) learn how to make that sonic translation. It’s still not ever ideal. If you’re already drawing your low end conclusions from the back of the room or other audience locations, then please disregard.
FOH systems sound very different from the stage than they do from the audience. It’s why we trust our sound techs to adjust our signal for the room. At their best, the tech can truly “mix” the inputs and optimize all of them with a different perspective from the players’ - the audience’s. That can be a very different mix from the stage mix. And a bass signal sent DI from any source is only a starting point for a competent mix.
I’ve mixed a thousand shows from stage, successful only because I also spent enough time out front to (mostly) learn how to make that sonic translation. It’s still not ever ideal. If you’re already drawing your low end conclusions from the back of the room or other audience locations, then please disregard.
Last edited:
I appreciate all the tips. I would prefer to not need to use the amp. The best will be to have a skilled SE EQ the bass to sound more like the amp.
edwinhurwitz
Supporting Member
It sounds to me like the problem isn’t the PA but that the Markbass rig isn’t telling you the truth as to how the bass really sounds. I’m sure it sounds tight and punchy on stage through the amp, but that’s because the amp isn’t providing the lows that the bass is putting out. I’ve played through Markbass combos (and I actually have one of the cabinets without the head because I thought it would sound much better than it does with a Genzler head), and it’s always been a bit frustrating.
So, you can try going through a lot of machinations in the PA to get a similar tone, but it likely won’t really capture what you like about the stage sound. Maybe you should mic up the cabinet with a decent microphone. No reason you have to take a DI.
This is one of the reasons I have always tried to have a speaker on stage that is closer to a PA response than a typical bass cab.
So, you can try going through a lot of machinations in the PA to get a similar tone, but it likely won’t really capture what you like about the stage sound. Maybe you should mic up the cabinet with a decent microphone. No reason you have to take a DI.
This is one of the reasons I have always tried to have a speaker on stage that is closer to a PA response than a typical bass cab.
The problem is not with how the amp sounds. The OP prefers the sound from the amp, and wants to know how to trick the PA into sounding more like it.
That's it. The amp sounds killer in the mix. I'm a fan. I've never tried micing the cab. I don't like doing that because i've used IR's on guitar for quite a few years now. Micing should get the tone however.
Last edited:
For the OP: what mid-high cabs are your subs (sub?) paired with? Your bass rig -- 500 watts into two bass-specific 12s -- is fairly potent, IMO. Maybe some of the problem is the PA is just not capable of the same sort of performance with the same sort of headroom. Not all PA systems are. Especially given that most powered PA gear -- both full-range cabs and subs -- is heavily processed in order to squeeze the most 'loud' out of relatively small, reasonably priced packages. That compression, limiting and EQ are not conducive to producing a 'punchy' bass sound, IMHO.
So there are 4 people (including you) in this thread who just don’t know how to EQ, filter, and compress a bass signal to control and shelve it to work in a sound system effectively. Great news! the answers for everyone are in this thread.
I know it’s not easy, but if you’re not willing to take the great shared advice and put in the work to correct the problem then why ask for help in the first place? I know this is frustrating for you, but it’s equally as frustrating for those of us who have spent time trying to help you.
If you’re intimidated by all the info, simple share that and ask those who shared everything to place everything in easy to understand terms. I’m quite sure they will. JMHO
I’m sorry, but that’s kinda’ how it was coming across. Perhaps it’s the daunting frustration of the problem and I can understand that, but look at the positive side. You’ll only need to learn to do this once and then you’ll know how to overcome it in any scenario.
I could have been more clear on my question and it tends to get lost in the exchanges. I was wanting confirmation that at non-pro levels without a pro sound engineer, it often works best to keep the bass out of the sub, or, specific advice on how to EQ a full-range PA to get more of that punchy, Markbass tone. I do believe in feedback and a lot of people took time out of their day to contribute here and appreciate your feedback as well regarding how I was presenting here. It's all about getting better rather than defending turf...
You are correct on all accounts and sometimes the intention of the post gets lost in the translation. No big deal.
Let me just say that trying to get the sound you’re getting from your Mark Bass will be extremely difficult, mainly because your amp was designed to do that exact thing and your PA was designed to cover a wide spectrum of frequencies, not focus on one area.
If you can do it, please try using a HPF and compressor between your Tech 21 and the board. You may need to dial down your output signal from the Tech 21 to the board and the HPF and compressor will help with thst as well.
I would start with the HPF at 100hz with some mild compression. You can always bring the frequency down in the HPF to find a sweet spot.
As I mentioned in a previous post, you ought to set-up the sub and one PA speaker aimed back at you. Then you work on the bass signal and once you have that at an acceptable level and tone, add the bass drum.
One other thing is when you get that done and you lock your playing with the bass drum you get all tge punch you’ll ever need.
Last edited:
Well, not quite...some component will end up in the subs. I asked earlier about whatever crossover / speaker management is in-play as I have no working knowledge / experience with the tops & subs. You can EQ all day long and still fall short of the goal.
Couple things worth trying....might help, can't hurt:
*Roll-in your HPF on the mic channel or device of your choosing.
*If capable, create an "underlap" between the tops & subs as below:
Subs: HPF ~50 hz (BW18), LPF ~80-90 hz (LR24). Gee, that's a pretty narrow window but there's still plenty of energy / ooomph.
Mains: HPF ~120-140 hz (LR24)
Adjust to taste. This will (should?) remove the mud and unmask the punch.
Riis
We usually start with the LPF for the subs around 100 hz. Some times we set it as low as 80 depending on the application and venue.
Last edited:
