Amp vs Speaker - Which Has More Effect on Pitches Sounding Distinct From One Another

[Sean Hughes]

Hi All,

I had been practicing bass on headphones for a long time (M50), but also using my studio monitors (Yamaha HS7). They both make the notes sound very articulate, which made me sound worse at first, but after a year or two of heavy practice, they make me sound better because you can hear each note's pitch as very distinct from the other pitches.

My Hartke Kickback 15 sounded fine in jam sessions where there was a lot of other instruments muddying up the sound anyway. I recently started practicing solo with the amp cranked halfway, and noticed the notes all sound very similar. For example, when playing the harmonic minor scale, the five and flat six notes are hard to tell apart.

I am interested in either replacing the amp or buying a replacement 15" speaker.
The question comes down to whether the note pitch distinction is more affected by the speaker or by the amp. (The question is both general and specific to the Hartke Kickback 15).
If the speaker has more of an effect, then I would like to try a good replacement speaker.
If its the amp, then replace the whole thing.
And if its both, then who knows.

If I do go the speaker route, I am curious about having to check all kinds of electronic and cabinet shape variables. I replaced the speaker on my guitar amp, and it just sounded better. The only numbers I checked were whether the ohms and watts matched. Maybe guitars are less effected by the shape of the cabinet because they have a more focused note range that starts an octave higher. (My bass is a four string tuned to EADG).

All in all, I am using my headphones and monitors to record, and they sound great for recording. The amp doesn't have to sound great, but the notes need to sound distinct. If I can get more distinction from the amp, but not a huge improvement in tone, that would be okay.

Thanks everyone for your feedback!

 

[Downunderwonder]

Firstly it's the amp settings.
Then the cab has a go.
Then the sound bounces around the room.

 

[jeff7bass]

It's pretty loud if you're practicing solo with that amp cranked halfway. Bring the volume down and start experimenting with the EQ. Maybe dial out some lows and dial up more low-mids and or hi-mids. The fact it sounds good in jam sessions means the amp is capable. I myself practice with a little Hartke HD25, which is a great living room amp. Plenty loud, very good sound when tweaked right.

 

[Redbrangus]

Amplifiers all perform pretty much the same way -- at least as far as frequency response is concerned. Speakers play a much larger role in your overall sound. But don't waste any effort just replacing the speaker in your Hartke; with bass, the speaker and the cab have to be compatible -- designed to work together. That isn't an issue with a guitar cab, which is why your speaker swap with your guitar amp worked OK. If, after experimenting with the EQ recommendations above, you still feel the need to upgrade, get a whole new rig. I'd opt for a Class D head and cab my own self.

Edit: And enclosure shape has no effect on frequency response or tonal characteristics.

 

[Wasnex]

Hi All,

I had been practicing bass on headphones for a long time (M50), but also using my studio monitors (Yamaha HS7). They both make the notes sound very articulate, which made me sound worse at first, but after a year or two of heavy practice, they make me sound better because you can hear each note's pitch as very distinct from the other pitches.

My Hartke Kickback 15 sounded fine in jam sessions where there was a lot of other instruments muddying up the sound anyway. I recently started practicing solo with the amp cranked halfway, and noticed the notes all sound very similar. For example, when playing the harmonic minor scale, the five and flat six notes are hard to tell apart.

I am interested in either replacing the amp or buying a replacement 15" speaker.
The question comes down to whether the note pitch distinction is more affected by the speaker or by the amp. (The question is both general and specific to the Hartke Kickback 15).
If the speaker has more of an effect, then I would like to try a good replacement speaker.
If its the amp, then replace the whole thing.
And if its both, then who knows.

If I do go the speaker route, I am curious about having to check all kinds of electronic and cabinet shape variables. I replaced the speaker on my guitar amp, and it just sounded better. The only numbers I checked were whether the ohms and watts matched. Maybe guitars are less effected by the shape of the cabinet because they have a more focused note range that starts an octave higher. (My bass is a four string tuned to EADG).

All in all, I am using my headphones and monitors to record, and they sound great for recording. The amp doesn't have to sound great, but the notes need to sound distinct. If I can get more distinction from the amp, but not a huge improvement in tone, that would be okay.

Thanks everyone for your feedback!

IMHO a good cab generally has more impact on the sound than the amp.

But you are talking about installing a different speaker in the Kickback. I am referring to getting a higher quality cab.

A lot of engineering goes into building a good cab. You can't just drop a random high quality driver into your Kickback and expect an improvement in sound.

Drivers have Thiele and Small (T/S) parameters. T/S parameters describe electro-mechanical characteristics of the driver. Cabs must be designed to fit the drivers T/S parameters. If you just drop a random driver into the cab, the resulting performance may be far worse than the driver the cab was built for. Here is a wiki if you want to learn more: Thiele/Small parameters - Wikipedia

There are programs where you can model different drivers in the Kickback. You basically have to measure the the inside of the Kickback and also the dimensions of any ports it may have. These are inputted into a speaker design program along with the T/S parameters of a driver, so you can see how well the box and driver work together. If the box is compatible with the driver, you may be able to slightly modify the port dimensions to optimize performance. If the box and driver are not compatible, you try the T/S parameters of different drivers until you find some that show potential.

T/S parameters relate mostly to the low frequency performance of the speaker system. You will also want to consider how the driver produces mids and highs. For this info you will review the driver's frequency response plot. You will want a driver that has T/S parameters that are compatible with the Kickback's cabinet, and also a mid- and high-frequency response that you find pleasing.

IMHO a Kickback is not really a great platform if your goal is to have a great sounding amp after you are done. It's pretty much an entry level amp. However, if you want to have some fun and maybe learn a bit about how speakers actually work, you may find it worthwhile to model some drivers and then see what sort of results you get by dropping a new driver in the Kickback. Keep in mind Hartke put significant engineering into the design, but perhaps some compromises were made to keep the cost down.

Personally, I would start saving for a nicer amp...but YMMV.

 

[Killing Floor]

Funny, I have that issue with headphones sometimes. But shaping the EQ fixes it. How do you set your EQ on the amp?

 

[agedhorse]

Both have an effect on tone.

Articulation tends to be poorer in lower prices amps/ speakers and better in higher priced amps/speakers. This is a generality that I find holds true over a wide range of combinations.

 

[Sean Hughes]

I'm running a Fender Precision bass with passive pickups EQed with the mids all the way up.
On the amp, I just set the EQ so all the notes were the same volume. I turn the bass to a low volume, play a high note and compare to a low note, get them somewhat the same, then turn the bass volume up.

Once the volume is up, the relative volumes of the high and low notes level out to each other even more.
I think I'll go with what Redbrangus said and get a new amp, hopefully something with on board compression.

 

[Mushroo]

I'm running a Fender Precision bass with passive pickups EQed with the mids all the way up.
On the amp, I just set the EQ so all the notes were the same volume. I turn the bass to a low volume, play a high note and compare to a low note, get them somewhat the same, then turn the bass volume up.

Once the volume is up, the relative volumes of the high and low notes level out to each other even more.
I think I'll go with what Redbrangus said and get a new amp, hopefully something with on board compression.

Just a suggestion, take it with a grain of salt for what it's worth:

I've been playing over 30 years and used to work in a recording studio. Your method of setting your EQ and volume, to be honest with you, you are the first person I have ever heard do that. It is totally different than any other bassist I have ever met. Did you come up with that on your own? Is that something your teacher showed you?

Not saying your method is "right" or "wrong" or that my method is "better" but if you are curious how I set my EQ and volume for informational purposes, here's how I've been doing it for 30+ years:

1. Turn bass volume up to full.
2. Turn tone control up full (passive bass) or set all EQ on the bass to flat (active bass).
3. Turn amp up loud.
4. Set amp EQ to flat.
5. Take lessons and practice until I sound good and can get consistent tone and volume over the entire range of the instrument, with flat EQ, no compressor, and my amp turned up loud.

In other words I am encouraging you to move away from idiosyncratic procedures like "turn the Mids up all the way" and more towards "The successful bassists who can coax a good sound out of any bass, how do they do it? How did they learn this skill, and can I learn it too?"

Okay, all well and good, but that doesn't answer your specific question, about trouble hearing the difference between pitches. When I was struggling with this exact same issue, here are the two specific exercises my teacher gave me:

1. Improve my 'muting' skills (aka 'dampening' for the Brits) to achieve greater clarity of pitch. I have noticed it seems, 9 times out of 10 when players struggle with indistinct or "blurry" pitch, the culprit ends up being their muting technique.
2. Practice ear-training and transcription skills, a little bit every day. Most people can't hear the difference between the five and flat six notes; very few of us are born with this skill. So I don't take my ability to do this for granted, and treat my ears like muscles that need regular upkeep to stay fit and toned. For example you could put the radio on a random station and try to hear, does this song have 5ths in it? Does this song have flatted 6ths? etc.

I feel like, if you have a good teacher and draw upon the collective wisdom of TalkBass, that "making a Fender Precision bass sound good" is an achievable goal. Think positive and don't give up!

 

[Sean Hughes]

My method for EQing was half balancing the volume of the strings and half something I learned from an online guide to mixing several instruments so they are the same volume. It works to get everything balanced volume wise, but doesn't fix the indistinct notes. Thanks for the EQing tip, I'll give it a try next time.

I checked to see if I am muting and am most of the time, but did not when going from the flat 6 to the major 7 notes in the harmonic minor. Much appreciated for bringing me back to basics!

I've only played solo 3 times at the jam room, and each time I was able to get a much clearer sound.
Any amp that would be a step up from the Hartke would be a lot of money, so I have plenty of time to practice while I am saving up. If I can get better articulation by then and not need another amp, that would be great.

 

[Mushroo]

My method for EQing was half balancing the volume of the strings and half something I learned from an online guide to mixing several instruments so they are the same volume. It works to get everything balanced volume wise, but doesn't fix the indistinct notes.

The problem with that theory, is that all of the strings on the bass produce a blend of bass, mid, and treble frequencies. It sounds like you're thinking the "bass" control is for your E string, the "treble" control is for your G string, and the "mid" control is for the two strings in the middle. But it doesn't work that way, in my experience.

It sounds like the "online guide" you read, might not have been written from a bass player's perspective.

An analogy is that your bass tone is cake, and EQ is frosting. Sure, if your cake is lumpy and uneven, you can fill the dips with extra frosting, and it will end up looking smooth enough to the casual observer. But a good culinary instructor can teach you how to make a cake that is flat and level, so you don't need to patch the uneven parts with extra frosting.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Once the volume is up, the relative volumes of the high and low notes level out to each other even more.

this is the focus of the famous Fletcher-Munson study that produced their ''curves of equal loudness''. Also the why of old hifi gear having a ''loudness'' button which gooses the low end EQ, ostensibly for when you want to listen at low volume.

Our ears have relatively poor sensitivity to low end at low volume and it catches up as the overall volume rises. But google Fletcher Munson for the full story.

 

[Wasnex]

The problem with that theory, is that all of the strings on the bass produce a blend of bass, mid, and treble frequencies. It sounds like you're thinking the "bass" control is for your E string, the "treble" control is for your G string, and the "mid" control is for the two strings in the middle. But it doesn't work that way, in my experience.

It sounds like the "online guide" you read, might not have been written from a bass player's perspective.

An analogy is that your bass tone is cake, and EQ is frosting. Sure, if your cake is lumpy and uneven, you can fill the dips with extra frosting, and it will end up looking smooth enough to the casual observer. But a good culinary instructor can teach you how to make a cake that is flat and level, so you don't need to patch the uneven parts with extra frosting.

I don't know for sure, but it sounds like he is adjusting the amp as if it has a Fender tone stack. The general advice with a Fender tone stack is the closest setting to flat is the Mid control near max and the Bass and Treble control near off. With some amps this advice is actually fairly accurate, but not all "Fender" tone stacks have the same components. So individual amps will tend to have different voices and respond to EQ inputs in a different manner.

As an example I own an Ashdown CTM 300 and also an Ashdown 427. If you were to quickly look at a schematic the ton stacks are almost identical. But these amp are voiced drastically different. If you look a bit closer you will see that the components in each tone stack are considerably different, and I am that at least in part, the different component values change the voicing of the amps and how the tone stacks work. Basically some Fender tone stacks are most flat with B M T near or at 2/10, 7/10, 0/10; some are not

I could not tell you if it is valid to treat the Hartke Kickback as if it has a Fender tone stack. If nominally flat is with all controls at 12:00, that would be where I would start.

As far as EQ'uing so all notes are even. IMHO this is actually a fairly decent strategy. It's actually the way I use the EQ in my GK 700RB/112 combo. I find that the EQ in this amp is not particularly good for changing the basic tone, but it is very good for evening out the sound, so all notes speak at about the same volume. My approach is probably a bit different than the OP. I EQ so the sound is perceived as even in the mix, rather than when I play by myself. This requires quite a bit of boost in the mids and highs, due to masking from the other instruments.

The other aspect the OP mentions is called frequency slotting and is a very important and valid concept. The idea is that if several instruments are making sound at the same frequency only the loudest will be heard, and the others will be masked. So the audio tech uses frequency slotting to carve out a little bit of space with EQ so each instrument can be heard in an appropriate/characteristic range.

IMHO the EQ strategy you use may vary a bit depending upon the way the EQ in your amp works. The tone controls in some of my tube amps are useful for dialing in a range of sounds, but they are totally ill suited for dealing with acoustic problems. So while I find the tone controls in my GK 700RB/112 works great for evening out the sound of my bass, this is not a useful strategy to use with some of my tube amps.

 

[Mushroo]

I don't know for sure, but it sounds like he is adjusting the amp as if it has a Fender tone stack. The general advice with a Fender tone stack is the closest setting to flat is the Mid control near max and the Bass and Treble control near off. With some amps this advice is actually fairly accurate, but not all "Fender" tone stacks have the same components. So individual amps will tend to have different voices and respond to EQ inputs in a different manner.

As an example I own an Ashdown CTM 300 and also an Ashdown 427. If you were to quickly look at a schematic the ton stacks are almost identical. But these amp are voiced drastically different. If you look a bit closer you will see that the components in each tone stack are considerably different, and I am that at least in part, the different component values change the voicing of the amps and how the tone stacks work. Basically some Fender tone stacks are most flat with B M T near or at 2/10, 7/10, 0/10; some are not

I could not tell you if it is valid to treat the Hartke Kickback as if it has a Fender tone stack. If nominally flat is with all controls at 12:00, that would be where I would start.

As far as EQ'uing so all notes are even. IMHO this is actually a fairly decent strategy. It's actually the way I use the EQ in my GK 700RB/112 combo. I find that the EQ in this amp is not particularly good for changing the basic tone, but it is very good for evening out the sound, so all notes speak at about the same volume. My approach is probably a bit different than the OP. I EQ so the sound is perceived as even in the mix, rather than when I play by myself. This requires quite a bit of boost in the mids and highs, due to masking from the other instruments.

The other aspect the OP mentions is called frequency slotting and is a very important and valid concept. The idea is that if several instruments are making sound at the same frequency only the loudest will be heard, and the others will be masked. So the audio tech uses frequency slotting to carve out a little bit of space with EQ so each instrument can be heard in an appropriate/characteristic range.

IMHO the EQ strategy you use may vary a bit depending upon the way the EQ in your amp works. The tone controls in some of my tube amps are useful for dialing in a range of sounds, but they are totally ill suited for dealing with acoustic problems. So while I find the tone controls in my GK 700RB/112 works great for evening out the sound of my bass, this is not a useful strategy to use with some of my tube amps.

All very true, but I think you're talking about mixing and the OP is talking about practicing.

Playing a Fender Precision bass through a Hartke combo, solo in the practice room with no other instruments, every note should be clearly audible, at every EQ setting.

Let's be clear with the OP that a P-bass into a combo amp ought to be a great-sounding, plug-and-play, easy-to-use practice rig. "I want to hear every note I play on my P-bass" is a realistic and attainable goal.

 

[DavidEdenAria]

Hi All,

I had been practicing bass on headphones for a long time (M50), but also using my studio monitors (Yamaha HS7). They both make the notes sound very articulate, which made me sound worse at first, but after a year or two of heavy practice, they make me sound better because you can hear each note's pitch as very distinct from the other pitches.

My Hartke Kickback 15 sounded fine in jam sessions where there was a lot of other instruments muddying up the sound anyway. I recently started practicing solo with the amp cranked halfway, and noticed the notes all sound very similar. For example, when playing the harmonic minor scale, the five and flat six notes are hard to tell apart.

I am interested in either replacing the amp or buying a replacement 15" speaker.
The question comes down to whether the note pitch distinction is more affected by the speaker or by the amp. (The question is both general and specific to the Hartke Kickback 15).
If the speaker has more of an effect, then I would like to try a good replacement speaker.
If its the amp, then replace the whole thing.
And if its both, then who knows.

If I do go the speaker route, I am curious about having to check all kinds of electronic and cabinet shape variables. I replaced the speaker on my guitar amp, and it just sounded better. The only numbers I checked were whether the ohms and watts matched. Maybe guitars are less effected by the shape of the cabinet because they have a more focused note range that starts an octave higher. (My bass is a four string tuned to EADG).

All in all, I am using my headphones and monitors to record, and they sound great for recording. The amp doesn't have to sound great, but the notes need to sound distinct. If I can get more distinction from the amp, but not a huge improvement in tone, that would be okay.

Thanks everyone for your feedback!

What is your bass? Have you messed around with pickup height at all?

Owning a pair of TL-606 cabs with EV15L i can tell you they are very articulate at low to mid volumes (though they are efficient) not something that should be dimed by a big amp though.

The 'baked in sound' varies with different bass amps for sure...1000's of posts discuss this.

 

[Lobster11]

Have you messed around with pickup height at all?

This might be a good idea for two reasons. First, if your pups are too high (too close to the strings), lowering them a bit might enahance the clarity/articulateness of the notes. (I learned this not long ago from experience.) Second, it's possible that with the EQ flat you're getting uneven string-to-string volume, and you're using your EQing method to compensate for that. So, you might need to tweak the angle of one or both pups to even out the volume across strings.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Hi All,

I had been practicing bass on headphones for a long time (M50), but also using my studio monitors (Yamaha HS7). They both make the notes sound very articulate, which made me sound worse at first, but after a year or two of heavy practice, they make me sound better because you can hear each note's pitch as very distinct from the other pitches.

My Hartke Kickback 15 sounded fine in jam sessions where there was a lot of other instruments muddying up the sound anyway. I recently started practicing solo with the amp cranked halfway, and noticed the notes all sound very similar. For example, when playing the harmonic minor scale, the five and flat six notes are hard to tell apart.

I am interested in either replacing the amp or buying a replacement 15" speaker.
The question comes down to whether the note pitch distinction is more affected by the speaker or by the amp. (The question is both general and specific to the Hartke Kickback 15).
If the speaker has more of an effect, then I would like to try a good replacement speaker.
If its the amp, then replace the whole thing.
And if its both, then who knows.

If I do go the speaker route, I am curious about having to check all kinds of electronic and cabinet shape variables. I replaced the speaker on my guitar amp, and it just sounded better. The only numbers I checked were whether the ohms and watts matched. Maybe guitars are less effected by the shape of the cabinet because they have a more focused note range that starts an octave higher. (My bass is a four string tuned to EADG).

All in all, I am using my headphones and monitors to record, and they sound great for recording. The amp doesn't have to sound great, but the notes need to sound distinct. If I can get more distinction from the amp, but not a huge improvement in tone, that would be okay.

Thanks everyone for your feedback!

Eq.

If you want note clarity, turn your bass knob down, and your mid knob up. Having a small rig/set up also helps because of the lack of low end. But then again, you won't make your band sound good, or even hear yourself. So...

 

[G On Bass]

If comparing solely amp and cab, I have come to believe lately that the cab has an awful lot to do with it. Case in point: We rehearse at a place that has a great backline. Our normal room has an Ampeg V-4B with a 212AV cab (almost my exact personal set up except I have 2x112AV). Last week we had to rehearse in a different room. Same head, same pedals, same bass, same strings, same songs, different cab (410HLF). It sounded totally different with my usual settings.

All that being said, both sound different from my headphones.

 

[sawzalot]

It does sound like the eq-ing strategy is built around getting a Fender tone stack to approach flat. However: we have no idea if the Hartke Kickback's tone stack is the same as a Fender tone stack. Either way, the approach of making the signal "flat" is really not appropriate at the stage of the signal chain. The approach at this stage of the signal chain should be "make it sound good" vs. "accurately reproduce the input signal". I would try eq-ing the amp differently to see if it is any better by itself. If you can twist a knob and fix it....that's the solution. Only after trying that would I start looking at other amps, components, etc.

 

[bbh]

I ran a kickback with a 3rd party ext. cabinet years ago and it was super clear. Can’t remember which one though.