Amp vs Speaker - Which Has More Effect on Pitches Sounding Distinct From One Another

[Bassndrums73]

It’s all in the EQ. If you can’t hear the difference in the notes the biggest culprit is usually having the bass EQ knob up too much. Turn it down until the note become distinguishable then work the midrange from there.

 

[dkelley]

IMHO EQ has the biggest effect on what you're asking about, O.P.

the smaller the speaker, the less you can drive it, and likely the less low end it has along with being generally less loud. Lots of other things change, distortion characteristics etc which can contribute to what you're asking about, but it happens moreso as you push any speaker past it's comfortable operating limits.

Amps? Same thing, actually, although there are a lot more semi-passable cheap amps than there are semi-passable cheap speakers out there, so I'd put more of it on the speaker if choosing which to upgrade to solve your problem, for example.

But they really do work as a unit, and either can let you down.

But EQ? EQ abuse, or poor quality EQ that imparts it's own tone on the circuit no matter how you set it, can reduce note differentiation, for example, which is I think what you're talking about.

Right?

 

[mattj1stc]

Firstly it's the amp settings.
Then the cab has a go.
Then the sound bounces around the room.

Perfectly stated

 

[Wasnex]

Either way, the approach of making the signal "flat" is really not appropriate at the stage of the signal chain. The approach at this stage of the signal chain should be "make it sound good" vs. "accurately reproduce the input signal". I would try eq-ing the amp differently to see if it is any better by itself.

IMHO nominally flat for the amp is just a starting point. I don't think bass guitar pickups have flat frequency response, so ultimately you will most likely adjust the amp away from flat. But many people like to start with the amp at a nominally setting.

Keep in mind the OP is saying he adjusts for perceived even response, which is not the same thing as flat.

I know a lot of people love the Hartke Kickback amps. Years ago I played through one of the 12s and I couldn't get a good sound out of it. I believe that has more to do with my personal taste than the quality of the amp, so no offense to anyone who loves these amps. I remember the amp being rather warm sounding, and I tend to prefer something that most would describe as more HiFi.

My point is the OP's amp may not be capable of producing the type of sound that he likes, and no matter of fussing with the tone controls will fix the problem. Sometimes the solution is getting a different amp.

I do agree that before one goes to the extreme of replacing one's amp, one should go nuts with the tone controls to make sure the desired tone is not hiding in there somewhere.

 

[seamonkey]

You might want to try tipping the amp back so it points at your ear.
Hearing the mids better can help sometimes at hearing the pitch.

 

[Jazzjames]

All parts of the signal chain have an impact, but if you’re feeding your amp a bad signal to start with, you can’t recover from that. It may be obvious, but try practising unplugged and listen to the acoustic sound of the bass.

 

[Sean Hughes]

What is your bass? Have you messed around with pickup height at all?

Owning a pair of TL-606 cabs with EV15L i can tell you they are very articulate at low to mid volumes (though they are efficient) not something that should be dimed by a big amp though.

The 'baked in sound' varies with different bass amps for sure...1000's of posts discuss this.

I am using a Fender Precision Elite. I have not reset the pickup height, only touched the setup. The bass itself sounds articulate out of other amps, headphones, or even acoustic (though not very loud on this one). It is a good sounding instrument, whether set to active or passive.

I have set pickup height on electric guitars, which helped to equalize the strings, but did not necessarily balance the volume of all the notes.

 

[Sean Hughes]

All parts of the signal chain have an impact, but if you’re feeding your amp a bad signal to start with, you can’t recover from that. It may be obvious, but try practising unplugged and listen to the acoustic sound of the bass.

Acoustically sounds great minus the fat plugged in sound of an electric bass of course.

 

[Sean Hughes]

You might want to try tipping the amp back so it points at your ear.
Hearing the mids better can help sometimes at hearing the pitch.

Agreed on this. The amp should be called a Hartke Tipback instead of a Kickback, since most people probably don't kick the amp back.

 

[Sean Hughes]

I don't know for sure, but it sounds like he is adjusting the amp as if it has a Fender tone stack. The general advice with a Fender tone stack is the closest setting to flat is the Mid control near max and the Bass and Treble control near off. With some amps this advice is actually fairly accurate, but not all "Fender" tone stacks have the same components. So individual amps will tend to have different voices and respond to EQ inputs in a different manner.

As an example I own an Ashdown CTM 300 and also an Ashdown 427. If you were to quickly look at a schematic the ton stacks are almost identical. But these amp are voiced drastically different. If you look a bit closer you will see that the components in each tone stack are considerably different, and I am that at least in part, the different component values change the voicing of the amps and how the tone stacks work. Basically some Fender tone stacks are most flat with B M T near or at 2/10, 7/10, 0/10; some are not

I could not tell you if it is valid to treat the Hartke Kickback as if it has a Fender tone stack. If nominally flat is with all controls at 12:00, that would be where I would start.

As far as EQ'uing so all notes are even. IMHO this is actually a fairly decent strategy. It's actually the way I use the EQ in my GK 700RB/112 combo. I find that the EQ in this amp is not particularly good for changing the basic tone, but it is very good for evening out the sound, so all notes speak at about the same volume. My approach is probably a bit different than the OP. I EQ so the sound is perceived as even in the mix, rather than when I play by myself. This requires quite a bit of boost in the mids and highs, due to masking from the other instruments.

The other aspect the OP mentions is called frequency slotting and is a very important and valid concept. The idea is that if several instruments are making sound at the same frequency only the loudest will be heard, and the others will be masked. So the audio tech uses frequency slotting to carve out a little bit of space with EQ so each instrument can be heard in an appropriate/characteristic range.

IMHO the EQ strategy you use may vary a bit depending upon the way the EQ in your amp works. The tone controls in some of my tube amps are useful for dialing in a range of sounds, but they are totally ill suited for dealing with acoustic problems. So while I find the tone controls in my GK 700RB/112 works great for evening out the sound of my bass, this is not a useful strategy to use with some of my tube amps.

I have the standard bass, mid, high, but there is one other dial on the Kickback's EQ: Shape.
According to the manual, shape is a 20 dB increase that can be set anywhere from 100 Hz to 900 Hz.

The manual also refers to Shape as a filter. I wonder if that means Shape is filtering out the articulation.
I'll try turning it off and see what happens.

 

[Wasnex]

Agreed on this. The amp should be called a Hartke Tipback instead of a Kickback, since most people probably don't kick the amp back.

Not sure why anyone would argue about this. "Kickback" is a fairly common term, and there are plenty of old photos with people stricking a pose like this on the monitors.

 

[Sean Hughes]

Not sure why anyone would argue about this. "Kickback" is a fairly common term, and there are plenty of old photos with people stricking a pose like this on the monitors.
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I remember seeing members of Aerosmith do exactly this back in the 90s! Then there's the videos of The Who smashing their equipment.

 

[Wasnex]

I have the standard bass, mid, high, but there is one other dial on the Kickback's EQ: Shape.
According to the manual, shape is a 20 dB increase that can be set anywhere from 100 Hz to 900 Hz.

The manual also refers to Shape as a filter. I wonder if that means Shape is filtering out the articulation.
I'll try turning it off and see what happens.

On the Kickback 15, the "Shape" control applies a 20dB cut with a moveable center frequency. The control adjusts the frequency range from 100hz to 900hz. It's basically a pretty deep mid scoop.

 

[Wasnex]

I remember seeing members of Aerosmith do exactly this back in the 90s! Then there's the videos of The Who smashing their equipment.

A vocalist in one of the bands I was in wanted to do this on some very expensive monitors (about $6K each). We told him . His response, "But it looks cool ." I told him to bring his own monitors if he wanted to abuse them. Of course he did not even own a mic, so that was not going to happen .

 

[Downunderwonder]

A vocalist in one of the bands I was in wanted to do this on some very expensive monitors (about $6K each). We told him . His response, "But it looks cool ." I told him to bring his own monitors if he wanted to abuse them. Of course he did not even own a mic, so that was not going to happen .

wasn't it deriguer to smash the guitar through the front of the monitor before finishing it off on the stage? Your guy was an amateur.

 

[Wasnex]

wasn't it deriguer to smash the guitar through the front of the monitor before finishing it off on the stage? Your guy was an amateur.

One of my audio techs liked to tell humorous stories about jobs he had done.

On one gig it was not possible to make the monitors loud enough. Supposedly the band was from Europe and had a big muscley guy who spoke in an "Arnold Schwarzenegger" accent who kept coming out and scowling LAUTER! But the rig was not up to the task. Eventually the vocalist, whipped "it" out and watered down the front line to show his disapproval. Eeeeew! After that he started kicking everything off the front of the stage while flailing around one of those mic stands with a heavily weighted base.

The audio tech seemed to think it was hilarious as he had insisted on a powerful biamped monitor rig, and was overruled by the big dog at the sound company, who insisted he use passive system. So, it was one of those "Told you so " moments . 'Course, it's possible the same thing would have happened with the biamped rig, so maybe the big dog was right .

 

[biobass]

I have an older, lower powered Hartke Kickback 12. I generally leave the bass, mid and treble controls at the center detent position, and the Shape control at about 300 Hz. I have never had a problem discerning note frequencies with any of my basses: ‘65 Jazz, TI Jazz rounds; Roscoe Beck V, TI Jazz Rounds; Fender A/E Precision fretless, TI Jazz Flats; Turner Renaissance Fretless V, TI Acousticores; Kala Exotic Mahogany U-Bass, paohoehoe strings; 1939 Kay upright, David Gage Realist pu, TI Spirocores, D’Addario Helicore orchestral, or now Evah Pirazzi Weich. I agree with most that something is odd about how you are eq’ing your bass and amp. You should be able to clearly discern the 5th from the flat 6th on most any amp and on most any bass. Try playing the consonant perfect 5th (root and 5th) vs the somewhat more dissonant flatted 6th (root and flat 6th, which is equivalent intervallically to a maj 3rd to root octave, i.e. an interval class of a minor 6th). You should be able to hear the difference quite plainly.

 

[Sean Hughes]

Thank you everyone who said to check the EQ settings!

I did just that. I put in the suggested settings from the manual, then adjusted slightly.
Interestingly, the suggested setting was to lower the mid and raise the bass/high, which is the exact opposite of what I originally had.

After resetting the EQ, I could hear every note distinctly from one another across the whole fretboard.
This was immensely helpful in practicing, and it saved me from having to get a new speaker or amp.
I had a sharp improvement in my scales after only two hours of practicing them on an amp EQed so I could really hear all the notes!

Much Appreciation!

 

[David Jayne]

Thank you everyone who said to check the EQ settings!

I did just that. I put in the suggested settings from the manual, then adjusted slightly.
Interestingly, the suggested setting was to lower the mid and raise the bass/high, which is the exact opposite of what I originally had.

After resetting the EQ, I could hear every note distinctly from one another across the whole fretboard.
This was immensely helpful in practicing, and it saved me from having to get a new speaker or amp.
I had a sharp improvement in my scales after only two hours of practicing them on an amp EQed so I could really hear all the notes!

Much Apprecation!

Excellent. Some folks say a good method is to lower Bass all the way, then tweak everything else until it sounds ok (but very thin obviously) and then add Bass to desired fullness. Works.

 

[willddd]

My Hartke Kickback 15 sounded fine in jam sessions where there was a lot of other instruments muddying up the sound anyway. I recently started practicing solo with the amp cranked halfway, and noticed the notes all sound very similar. For example, when playing the harmonic minor scale, the five and flat six notes are hard to tell apart.

Roll off the bass I'd say, for starters.

I am interested in either replacing the amp or buying a replacement 15" speaker.
The question comes down to whether the note pitch distinction is more affected by the speaker or by the amp. (The question is both general and specific to the Hartke Kickback 15).
If the speaker has more of an effect, then I would like to try a good replacement speaker.
If its the amp, then replace the whole thing.
And if its both, then who knows.

Well both, but you can EQ the amp, but not the speaker.
It's also the cab that the speaker is in that has a significant effect on what is reproduced. I would think that getting a better amp is the better option (after you've explored all the EQing options of the Hartke).