Ampless questions

[mambo4]

Never played ampless, but it seems to be the trend of late. I wonder about the practicalities.

So if you (and/or the band) go ampless, how do you hear the mix? Monitors, IEMs, is there a standard?
How do you mix the mix you hear? Does it come form the board or is there dedicated hardware you bring?
Does everybody get the same mix from one box, many mixes from one box, or many mixes from many boxes?
How many cables and box connections are we talking about?
Do you bring your own PA or do you send a multi track feed to FOH?

Do you feel it is simple compared to the old ways?

 

[s0c9]

The bands I play in are all ampless.
I bring a pedalboard and wireless
We connect to the bands (on stage) mixer which has a splitter snake to send the same signal to FOH.
We are all 100% IEM - mostly wireless.
External router connected to the IEM mixer. We connect to the routers network and mix our own IEM mixers using - phone/tablets.
Each has their own mix. The number of mixes is based on the number of AUX outputs the mixer has. Most small footprint digital mixers have 6 or 8 of them.
Most of my gigs have PA provided. FOH mixes FOH.
One band has their own PA, so we still have IEM mixes but the main L/R outs from the mixer go to the PA. It’s mixed at sound check adjusted based on audience feedback.

I have 3 XLR’s to mixer.
1 is vocals.
1 is pedalboard
And 1 is AUX feed from the mixer to my wireless IEM transmitter (sitting under my pedalboard).
Simple. Compact. Functional.
1000% better (sand faster) than the old way.. because the mixer saves your settings, so next gig sound check is mostly for FOH.

 

[DirtDog]

It’s a bit more complex in terms of routing (both for Tx/Rx and your own mix) but it’s so worth it. For musicians singing harmonies, it’s a godsend. For musicians wanting ear protection in loud settings it’s a godsend.

There’s different “tiers” of complexity/refinement and along with that comes some cost. There’s a bit of a learning curve that goes along with that.

The type of mixer are you using now will dictate how complex/refined you can get.

I’ve gigged, rehearsed and recorded ampless for over a decade and I’ll never go back. My worst time with IEMs still far surpasses my best times with amp and wedges. I do a lot of vocals and I can’t abide by a bad monitor mix. With IEMs and the right equipment I can dial in my own mix just the way I like it.

To answer your questions - I use the Presonus 16R interface and the Presonus Universal Control mixer software (on a MacBook plugged into the 16R via USB) to receive and manage inputs.

I use the Presonus EarMix 16 for monitoring. This connects to the 16R via Ethernet cable. We have one EarMix unit for each of us (three in total). They are daisy-chained from the 16R, so a total of three Ethernet cables to send signal to the monitors. Each member gets their own mix and can get what they want on the fly.

Currently, I run wired IEMs from the EarMix to my IEMs since we’re in recording studio mode. I have a D Debra wireless unit in between the EarMix and my IEMs if and when I need/want to run wireless but I’m using that less and less.

I had a slightly more complex but less expensive solution before going with the EarMix units. Involved a separate multichannel headphone amp and an wifi router so each member could dial their mix using their smartphone and an app.

 

[Wasnex]

• There is no standard. You can use a foldback monitor or IEMs.
  • Finding a foldback monitor that works well for bass is not particularly easy.
  • IEMs give you isolation and the option for a stereo mix.
    • A stereo mix can make it easier to hear in a dense mix, which can allow you to run at a lower volume.
    • Doing IEMs right requires a more sophisticated system and knowledge.
• Ideally you get a personal mix.
  • Most people want to hear their own voice and instrument approximately 6-10dB louder than the rest of the mix, so sharing mixes does not typically work well.
  • Using some sort of personal monitor system like the Rolls PM351 is a work around if the system is not sophisticated enough to give everyone a personal mix. The Rolls PM351 gives you level control over your mix, you instrument, and a mono or stereo monitor mix.
    • The Rolls does not have tone controls or a limiter to protect you from accidents.
• The way monitor mixes are controlled can vary widely.
  • Sometimes the audio tech works with everyone to dial in their mix.
  • Some mixers have phone apps that allow each person to set levels in their personal mix.
  • Some mixers can be set up with stand alone IEM mixers such as Behringer PowerPlay.
    • These take the signals off before they are processes.
      • Each user sets levels and has channel EQ and global EQ.
  • Another way is to use a split snake to distribute the signal to a seperate FOH mixer and monitor mixer.
    • Usually dedicated audio techs run each mixer.
    • It's also possible for musicians to make adjustments to their individual mix.
• FOH is run off the faders and monitor mixes are run off rotary controls routed to aux sends
  • The channel strip on mixers only has one set of tone controls.
    • Usually the tone controls should be prioritized to FOH mix.
      • The Aux sends may be configured different ways.
        • If set to pre EQ you get a flat unprocessed signal.
          • You can use a preamp DI do to dial in your sound
        • If set to post EQ you get whatever tone adjustments are used to make you sound good in the house mix
          • These adjustments may be contrary to your needs.
  • With more sophisticated systems it may be possible to essentially split the mixer into two levels.
    • The inputs are duplicated across two different fader levels.
      • For example Fader level A could be channels 1-32 and Fader level B could be channels 33-64.
        • Channel 1 input is dual assigned to Channel 33, Channel 2 input is dual assigned to Channel 34, Channel 3 input is dual assigned to Channel 35, etc.
      • The idea is each channel has its own set of tone controls.
        • One channel sets your tone for the FOH mix.
        • The other channels sets tone for the monitor mixes.
    • Although this tends to give superior results is way more complicated and time intensive.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

Lots of thread here about this very topic and ways to do it.
Basically you need a splitter, some form of a small digital rack mixer, wireless and or hardwired IEM packs.......all neatly wired and package in
a portable rack with at least a couple people in the band who know how to operate and trouble shoot that system in a time crunch on a dark stage.

If your carrying your own microphone package your in ear mixes will just about be plug and play at each show once you get them dialed in.

Practice with the system before taking it to the first show, don't cheap out on the equipment, skipping those points will leave you frustrated and giving up on IEMS.

 

[mambo4]

Thanks everyone for the replies. All of this is good info! Naming specific gear that you actually use is quite helpful.
If I wanted to be Ampless-ready for a future band that has gone ampless, what gear would they expect me to bring, as an individual musician?

 

[turcmic]

Here’s my go-to for live ampless gigs :
- I prefer to have control over what I send to the mixer. I have my RNDIs (one for my bass, one for my electric UB) under my pedalboard with xlr connectors on the side of the pedalboard
- I always bring an iPad to connect to the monitor mixer and control my own mix. Cell phone works too but I prefer a larger screen. It’s mandatory for me now. I had a gig where the soundman changed the gain structure during the show and the whole mix turned into complete chaos. Never again.
- I have my IEM (Plunge Audio) that are well sealed and sound great
- I have an headphone amp (Rolls PM55p) on my board. I just plug the xlr (or 2 if I can have a stereo mix - I made myself a Y cable with one TRS and 2 female XLR) from the mixer straight in. I just bought Mipro Mi-909 wireless system which is well praised here, first gig with it next Tuesday. The Rolls will take some time off. Some bands provide an amplified signal from an headphone amp but I usually use my gear
- I made myself a double cable with an instrument cable and an headphone extension cable, both into a sleeve. So only one cable to worry about
- I bring my XLR cables for the IEM system with TRS adapters. Some mixers aux are XLR (my Soudcfrat Ui24r has XLR aux), some have 1/4 TRS (my main band has a Presonus with TRS). My cables are balanced.

That sounds like a lot of stuff but the only thing I have to worry on gigs is how I play.

Going ampless was a game changer for my old ears. I now ear myself and the band, and can control the volume.

 

[groove pump]

When I inherited the duties as the PA guy, I eventually picked up a Zoom LiveTrak L-20 mixer that has plenty of input channels for what we do. It also has six monitor channels that can give everybody the individual mix that they want to hear and it will save several mixes from previous setup that can be recalled on demand - I generally just use the mix from the last gig and turn up to where it's loud enough.

We don't use IEM's yet, but our lead singer and maybe guitar guy are going to eventually have a try with them so that they can hear as much of themselves as they want during a gig while keeping the stage volume relatively low. I'm not in a hurry to try IEM's right now, just because I want to hear everything on the stage and also step out front here and there to catch the mix going into the room.

Thanks everyone for the replies. All of this is good info! Naming specific gear that you actually use is quite helpful.
If I wanted to be Ampless-ready for a future band that has gone ampless, what gear would they expect me to bring, as an individual musician?

As long as you have something that can get your bass sound to the mixer, you should be okay in an ampless band setting. The Tech 21 gizmos like their Bass Driver DI have been a decent option for ampless bass players for a while. I just started experimenting with their Bass Fly Rig and that's another Tech 21 product that's great for enabling an ampless setup. That Fly Rig has a few different sounds/functions to offer, but it's very straightforward, easy to quickly dial in as far as tones and levels, and even the tuner is decent. I'm wishing I had grabbed one of these for myself a while ago.

I might eventually also do some ampless playing though my Zoom B6. This is a digital modeler with lots of patches and a format that includes a touch screen for really easy adjustments and editing. There are also four different DI models to select on its direct out. So far I've only used this unit as an effects board in front of my amp at a few gigs, but I know that I'll also eventually run it straight to the PA.

My Zoom B6 isn't considered to be the top of the heap in terms of sound quality and overall abilities, at least compared with something like an HX Stomp, but the B6 has been really easy for me use right out of the box. I'm not a tech heavy, so it sucks for me when I've got a unit that has enormous potential, but I can't figure out how to work with it without some serious home schooling. But that's just me.

One thing that I'll probably consider with my B6 if I play it in an ampless setting is putting a volume pedal between it and the mixer. Even though it's not very tricky getting the levels of different patches pretty close to each other, it can be a different sort of animal when a patch is running at a higher volume and needs to be reigned in a little bit. Something like an auto-wah or envelope filter needs "enough" input signal to make it quack, so turning down the volume on my bass isn't always the best option to keep a loud patch under control.

 

[pepj]

Thanks everyone for the replies. All of this is good info! Naming specific gear that you actually use is quite helpful.
If I wanted to be Ampless-ready for a future band that has gone ampless, what gear would they expect me to bring, as an individual musician?

A Front mix engr is absolutely essential so you/they need to cost for that.

 

[Bonecat]

My current band has been actively gigging for more than 10 years, and we’ve been ampless for 8. We typically play 40 shows a year. We use a Sennheiser wireless IEM system with three transmitters sending mono mixes to 6 band members through an antenna combiner. Mixer is either an X32R (when we use our PA) or an MR18 in a small rack box with a 16 channel splitter (when we are using house PA). Stage network uses a Ubiquiti router set up as described in sOc9’s very helpful guide. Everyone uses a phone or tablet to control their individual mix. We also use a Shure wireless mic system. The only cables on stage are signal cables (routed behind everyone) and DMX cables for our stage lighting system. This gives us a quicker setup/teardown and a clean stage. We can build out our stage and be ready for soundcheck in 40 minutes.

For many years, I ran FOH from the stage. That was sometimes a challenge, particularly when some sort of troubleshooting was needed. We hired an experienced audio engineer about 3 years ago and it’s been a revelation. He’s very talented, very easy to work with, funny as hell, and has single-handedly made us a better band. He’s paid as a member of the band and gets the same cut as everyone else. Taking that responsibility off my back has made me love gigging again.

 

[DJWhitJr]

Never played ampless, but it seems to be the trend of late. I wonder about the practicalities.

So if you (and/or the band) go ampless, how do you hear the mix? Monitors, IEMs, is there a standard?
How do you mix the mix you hear? Does it come form the board or is there dedicated hardware you bring?
Does everybody get the same mix from one box, many mixes from one box, or many mixes from many boxes?
How many cables and box connections are we talking about?
Do you bring your own PA or do you send a multi track feed to FOH?

Do you feel it is simple compared to the old ways?

Scott Uhl on youtube has a lot of videos on IEMs. You'll obviously need a way to send your signal to the mixer/FOH since you won't be using an amp. A good preamp/DI and pedals for any effects you use or any one of the various multi effects available.

For you monitoring I assume you'll patch into the bands available monitor buss on their mixer. With that in mind, you can go inexpensive and get a long XLR cable and a belt pack like the Behringer P2 and some IEMs. I recommend trying the CCA C12 or KZ AS10 (or equivalient) IEMs from Amazon. They work surprisingly well for the price.

If you want to go wireless, then I highly recommend the Audio Technica ATW-3255 Wireless IEM system. The in ears that come with them aren't very good so I still recommend the CCA or KZ iems. This is my actual setup my band uses and it's worked flawlessly.

If the band is using a digital mixer, then you'll also need something to control your mix like an ipad or Kindle Fire tablet. Find out what mixer they have and download the appropriate app or buy Mixing Station (my preference). There's a free version or a customizable version for basically every digital mixer ($5 per mixer model). Again, Scott Uhl's YouTube Channel has tons of content on all of this.

Hope this helps.

 

[s0c9]

Scott Uhl on youtube has a lot of videos on IEMs. You'll obviously need a way to send your signal to the mixer/FOH since you won't be using an amp. A good preamp/DI and pedals for any effects you use or any one of the various multi effects available.

For you monitoring I assume you'll patch into the bands available monitor buss on their mixer. With that in mind, you can go inexpensive and get a long XLR cable and a belt pack like the Behringer P2 and some IEMs. I recommend trying the CCA C12 or KZ AS10 (or equivalient) IEMs from Amazon. They work surprisingly well for the price.

If you want to go wireless, then I highly recommend the Audio Technica ATW-3255 Wireless IEM system. The in ears that come with them aren't very good so I still recommend the CCA or KZ iems. This is my actual setup my band uses and it's worked flawlessly.

If the band is using a digital mixer, then you'll also need something to control your mix like an ipad or Kindle Fire tablet. Find out what mixer they have and download the appropriate app or buy Mixing Station (my preference). There's a free version or a customizable version for basically every digital mixer ($5 per mixer model). Again, Scott Uhl's YouTube Channel has tons of content on all of this.

Hope this helps.

As I've posted many times on here.. most bands (and all 6 I've worked with over the last 2.5 yrs) have their own IEM mixer on stage with a splitter snake housed in the rack. MY 2 current bands do this and my prior 910 yr) band did the same! Everyone is IEM.
The band plugs everything into the splitter snake box.
One leg goes into the IEM mixer with a connected router. The other goes to the House.
Each band member connects to the "band" network and runs their own IEM mix.
FOH get to run FOH and band runs their monitor mixers.

Yes, one does need some form of a "sound" person in the band to EQ the channels on the IEM mixer, but each gig requires minimal IEM mix changes.
If your mics or ID's are provided by the House, then there might be some EQ changes needed on the IEM mixer, but norhing major.
Yes, there's a purchase cost.

IME - it sure beats the heck out of trying to work with a FOH guy using hand signals to tell them what you need more/less of, while they are trying to run FOH and it's significantly cuts sound check time!

 

[el murdoque]

So if you (and/or the band) go ampless, how do you hear the mix? Monitors, IEMs, is there a standard?

I suppose the standard is IEM. That's what I use.

How do you mix the mix you hear? Does it come form the board or is there dedicated hardware you bring?
Does everybody get the same mix from one box, many mixes from one box, or many mixes from many boxes?

Many mixes from one box. We bring a dedicated IEM mixer in a rack unit.

How many cables and box connections are we talking about?
Do you bring your own PA or do you send a multi track feed to FOH?

The rack we bring features:
1. A WiFi rack unit
2. A battery storage/charging system
3. IEM transmitters
4. The IEM Mixing console
5. An XLR Signal splitter.


The routing on stage is simple. We place the rack beside the FOH stage box and connect all the XLR cables from microphones and amps to our mixer. On the back of our mixer, there's a multicore coming out, which will be connected to the FOH stage box. That's the additional work that has to be done: Instead of plugging straight into the stage box, we plug into our stuff and our stuff into the stage box.
FOH works just like they are used to. We take our split of the signal, run it into our mixer (a digital one - popular models would be the Behringer XR-18 or X32R (or the Midas equivalents), or the Soundcraft UI series - a digital mixer with enough aux paths to run the IEMs. Every band member brings a smart device (I mostly just use my phone) that connects to the mixer and can control the IEM feeds, so every member can adjust their own IEM mix at any time.

Do you feel it is simple compared to the old ways?

I must admit that on bigger stages and festivals and such - basically anything where you can expect a decent monitoring system and a dedicated monitor mixer person that is available to you at all times - I don't mind playing a 'loud' stage.
What is a huge difference is small spaces and clubs. When the place and stage are so small that one generally uses the bass amp (in part) to carry the room, I find that when I am standing about three feet in front of my amp, whenever I turn it up enough that I can properly hear myself, the people in the back rows will drown in bass and I'm asked to turn down. Since I'm standing much too close to my amp, the lows can't properly unfold before they reach me and I usually feed off the reflections of the back wall.
On those gigs, both the audience and me enjoy a much better signal since everything is running through the PA system with properly placed speakers for the audience and I have my own mix on my ears. I usually mix my feed by starting with a balanced mix, something I'd enjoy for listening, and then raising the drums a tiny bit and the bass a tiny bit more - back when I started, I set the drums at +3dB and the bass at +6dB (starting from a balanced mix), but that was too much for my taste. Now it's just a tiny bit.