I would like the gang's opinion on this. When(if) my community orchestra resumes, we will only have two players in the bass section. The other string sections have normal numbers so we will be at a big disadvantage balance-wise. I'm the principal and don't want to fight this battle for another season. The conductor is a good guy and understands the frustration but says everything sounds okay. What I would like to suggest is the basses play(slightly) amplified. I don't know of any orchestra that does this. I do know Gary Karr many years ago expressed the opinion that bass sections would someday be amplified. Will I be exiled from the group if I suggest this? Has anyone had experience doing it? If so, how did it work out? Thanks in advance.
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Double Bass Amplified bass in orchestra
- Thread starter Bruce Calin
- Start date
- May 3, 2007
- 1,468
- 1,156
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: D'Addario Strings, Remic Microphones
In a couple cases, I’ve done it. Small section playing outdoors, or playing solo up front, for example. You could also try having the basses elevated on wooden podiums, like the Resonanzio platforms.
Thanks for the info, Adam. This would be indoors on an auditorium stage. Did you find any particular sorts of EQ that seemed to blend better or be more natural sounding with the whole group playing?
I have never done this in a symphonic orchestra. I have done it in pit orchestras and concert bands where I was the only bass player. When I was the only bass player in community symphonies, I played acoustically and people told me I could be heard clearly even though I was playing on a really crappy bass.
Perhaps the bigger problem is having only 2 bassists. I have always heard that it takes several basses before a section develops a core sound. I guess it has become common to only have about 4 basses in smaller regional symphonies, but I think 6 or more would produce a much better section sound
On occasion in concert bands I had to play with another amplified bassist and I found it to be very difficult. I felt that I was able to play in tune by myself with the ensemble most of the time, unless there where intonation conflicts between sections. Also if the tympani player had questionably intonation it made things much worse for all of the low frequency instruments.
IMHO the decision traditionally falls to the conductor. The only reason I started using an amp in concert band is because the conductor asked me to. I had been using an amp for jazz and pop vocal pieces, and he asked me to use it for the bowed pieces as well. For bowed pieces I set the amp at a very low level that blended with the rest of the ensemble. For jazz and vocals the amp was loud enough to push the ensemble.
In my opinion it is much more difficult to get a good amplified sound with bow than pizz. So if you are going to make a fuss, make sure you can pull it off first. You might even want to meet with the other section bassist and see how well it works with both of you playing through an amp.
Thanks, Wasnex . Those are good suggestions. I'm also concerned with intonation and the other issues but I find that the tendency to overplay is hard to resist and the lack of the full- section weight and power is one of the things that makes playing under these circumstances so frustrating.
We had a very good full section for many years but for various reasons we lost most of our people in a very short time without having any replacements available. I'm still used to that sound and really miss it.
We had a very good full section for many years but for various reasons we lost most of our people in a very short time without having any replacements available. I'm still used to that sound and really miss it.
@Wasnex makes a good point regarding the number of bassists. Two is not a good number. You need one or more than two.
If there are two (not a good number), the way I would amplify would be with the basses facing each other and a bidirectional mic between them.
If there are two (not a good number), the way I would amplify would be with the basses facing each other and a bidirectional mic between them.
I’ve played many many gigs plugged in, but never in an orchestral setting. Honestly, I think it’ll be more trouble than it’s worth: unless you have a full time sound engineer getting a natural sound without feedback or killing your dynamic range, and at a correct volume level in the house is going to be challenging on a good day, and disastrous on a bad day.
Bruce, I would not do this. Nope.
You will alienate the cello section and the many other conservative members. Cello players sometimes feel basses are too loud. Bringing an amp to an orchestra crosses a definite line.
They will hate it imho.
I have 5 bass amps, ranging from small to mighty. Not one should go to an all acoustic orchestra. The only exception I can think of is a Pops concert with some jazz/drums going on or a loud concert band.
Play with two basses, or even one if you have to. A great bass sound carries well out in front.
I don’t think you will be at a big disadvantage with the balance.
You will alienate the cello section and the many other conservative members. Cello players sometimes feel basses are too loud. Bringing an amp to an orchestra crosses a definite line.
They will hate it imho.
I have 5 bass amps, ranging from small to mighty. Not one should go to an all acoustic orchestra. The only exception I can think of is a Pops concert with some jazz/drums going on or a loud concert band.
Play with two basses, or even one if you have to. A great bass sound carries well out in front.
I don’t think you will be at a big disadvantage with the balance.
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I appreciate all the replies. This is exactly what I was looking for. The hardest thing for me is psychological, I think. I explain to my students that we as players are in a certain sense in the worst place to actually hear what we are playing. It's hard to remember it sometimes. I have done some pit and session playing with one other player and that is the toughest combination for sure so our section definitely has our issues. I'm also pretty sure I'm going to forget the amp idea and hope we get some good new blood when we do start up again, hopefully soon.
Nope. do the best you can and remember you can make only so much sound. My first community orchestra concert was Brahms 1; I was the only bass.
- May 3, 2007
- 1,468
- 1,156
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: D'Addario Strings, Remic Microphones
Couldn’t tell you about the eq settings. It was always handled FOH in these cases.
One thing that I always remind my students, and myself sometimes, is that we never actually get to hear ourselves. The sound waves take space to develop, and the come out of the instrument somewhere around the knees, where we have no ears. It could very well be that your small but mighty section sounds just fine out front. Space permitting, try the podium set up, and get a few feet further back from the cellos so you aren’t playing right into the backs of their seats, allowing more space for the sound waves to propagate.
- May 3, 2007
- 1,468
- 1,156
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: D'Addario Strings, Remic Microphones
Thanks again, Adam. The Resonanzio is a great idea. I'm going to suggest that to the conductor. We have space considerations in our room that make it difficult to distance ourselves from the cellos. I read an interview with a retired bassist from the NY Phil who said that the main frustration of his career in the orchestra was that so often he couldn't hear himself. So(to myself) "shut up and get on with it". Thanks to everybody for your thoughts.
Question from a mostly acoustic roots DB player (who is also setup with pickups, mounted mic and amps), do orchestral players ever use personal monitors, perhaps even IEMs?
Have done this for Broadway/Pops concerts where I was the only bass player—occasionally programs will feature “legit” orchestral music as overture/entr’acte/etc.—so you’re playing Mozart or whatever into a mic in lieu of a bass section. I would back off the mic during the “classical” numbers and lean in more during the Broadway tunes.
In your situation I would proceed with caution. If you try it, use a good microphone (no pickup/amp) and make sure the PA is very subtle. Ideally nobody should really know you’re being amplified; the sound system just adds presence.
In your situation I would proceed with caution. If you try it, use a good microphone (no pickup/amp) and make sure the PA is very subtle. Ideally nobody should really know you’re being amplified; the sound system just adds presence.
That really comes with the territory. No bass section wants a guy who stands out. If you can hear yourself above the others you are standing out.
For what it’s worth I love when I am the only bass.
Sometimes the whole section uses the same strings and all sit exactly the same way. The audition requirements for a recent position in a major orchestra stated an extension required for employment. What if a guy has a 5 string or tunes in 5ths? ...don’t get me started
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There is a book called Hear the Music by Marshall Chasin that is a real tutorial for musicians about hearing loss and protection. He discusses a hearing protector called a vented/tuned earplug that can be hooked up by some hearing aid tubing to some point on the instrument to transmit the sound of the instrument directly to the ear- cool idea if it works. It has to be done by an audiologist but something to consider, especially it would help with overplaying and the hearing issue. The book is also a sort of scary cautionary tale for all of us about hearing loss.
I think this is really the right approach for orchestral work.
As far as hearing oneself clearly when playing acoustically: In my experience it never happened in any ensemble larger than a small chamber orchestra...and being able to hear myself is the exact reason I used to prefer playing in chamber ensembles. But I had few opportunities to play in chamber groups and many more chances to play in large orchestras.
My early instructors taught me to attack the instrument in order to produce as much volume as possible. This was the style in the regional orchestra where I grew up. But the expectation to play without hearing oneself clearly is consistent with the training I received. As I am sure you know, one needs great intimacy with the instrument in order to play in tune without the benefit of hearing oneself.
My last instructor, who was the principal in a different regional orchestra, taught me a totally different style, so approach varies from region to region. His bass was very loud and had great projection, but it was setup with surprisingly low action and played very easily. We focused on refining my technique, good form, and playing with the minimal effort required to get a good sound. There was no emphasis on attacking the instrument to maximize volume. The focus was more on producing a beautiful and expressive sound, and refining playing ergonomics to support a long and healthy career.
Ultimately I doubt overplaying will provide enough extra volume to really make that much of a difference, so you just have to learn to control your instincts and play at the volume that is within the optimal range for your instrument. It gets easier with experience, but IMHO the first thing to do is start modifying your expectations.
I agree completely with this. The problem comes when the conductor wants more volume than you can provide as a section. The temptation is to try to give more than you can realistically. Also, sometimes you're in a situation that's acoustically unfavorable and the tendency is to try to give more than you can. That is a recipe for disaster, musically and physically for the player. So far I've been able to avoid these problems, but realize I have to be careful. That's one of the reasons I was looking for options.
If the conductor demands more than you can give, the door is open to discuss amplification, though I don't really think that is the right solution.
I am kinda of curious if the conductor's demands and demeanor towards the bass section is why it has shrunk to two players. As principal, do you have a role in addressing this issue?
