Double Bass amplifier with "Thick sound"

[massimo]

Question for experienced double bass players: which amp (or cabinet) has the most "thick" sound for jazz pizzicato? I try to explain with my words what i mean with "thick":a sound that is robust, full, tight, with some "balls",that emphasize the attack and is not mushy and undefined. Naturally a great pizz sound comes mostly from your fingers but my impression is that amps in the last 20 years (digital power amps, class D and neodimium speakers) miss the point. Sure those amps are light, powerful, sound natural but they lack "balls". I have an AI Clarus head and a MAS25 speaker: they sound wonderful, very clean and MBOL but i feel there is something lacking. The sound i'm after is the kind of sound Ray Brown had on most of his '80 recordings when he used red Spiros, maybe not very natural but a great sound indeed . Any advice about a "ballsy" amplifier and/or speaker that go in that direction?

 

[BobDeRosa]

You've set yourself an excellent goal -- achieve your own version of Ray's sound. He used a Polytone amp, but that had nothing to do with it. He worked on his sound unamplified, then brought the amp just so the people in the back row could hear him. Get in the shed without an amp and find the best sound Massimo can possible produce. Then use any amp to make it louder for the people in the back row.

 

[AGCurry]

I have an AI Clarus head and a MAS25 speaker: they sound wonderful, very clean and MBOL but i feel there is something lacking.

It seems you might be looking for some distortion - not "dirt" so much as tone shaping, which IS distortion.

The sound you seek may be realized more in the signal you feed to the amp (and/or your equalization settings) than from the amp and cab which reproduces it. The bass, the player, the pickup (type, location, mounting), and any preamp - these are more significant factors than the magnets in your speakers or the class of power amp. There is no inherent sound of class-D amps or neodymium speakers.
My first reaction to your post was "try a magnetic pickup, or different pickup, or try different mounting locations."
Second reaction was "increase input gain."
Third reaction was "adjust EQ."

But I will second @BobDeRosa in suggesting that looking for an electrical solution is warranted only if you're happy with how you sound unamplified.

 

[neddyrow]

iamp800

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I agree with the replies above about getting the best acoustic sound possible, then amplifying it. On the amp side, I found what you are describing with: https://chrisfitzgeraldmusic.com/do...o/?wpdmdl=918&refresh=641dcdb55967f1679674805

 

[Eric Hochberg]

I was going to suggest an MAS cabinet but see that's what you use along with a Clarus, a great amp. What pickup are you using?

 

[neddyrow]

Sarno Black Box - check the thread - might help

 

[Jefenator]

Sounds to me like you're looking for some combination of low mids & compression. I would say a majority of bass amps provide some degree of this. Some let you dial it in manually while others have it more "baked in".

 

[james condino]

Two five inch speakers may be convenient to carry around, but they are never going to have any "balls"; especially when you consider that Clarus head will power an SVT cabinet.

 

[Ketbass]

I was thinking this. When I need a lot of deep sound I couple my AI Coda with my Eden 410. Sounds overkill but it really sounds good. Granted, a DB and a 410 cabinet is not as gig friendly as what you have, but one the guitar players I play with said if I keep it up, he’ll need a new spleen. I’ll take it.

 

[Ric Vice]

Two five inch speakers may be convenient to carry around, but they are never going to have any "balls"; especially when you consider that Clarus head will power an SVT cabinet.

Well There's two Fives and then there's two 5's in a MAS cabinet, which is a "horse of a different color". That said the MAS 2/5 is one of Mike's earlier cabinets and he moved on to different designs. My MAS 4x5.5 is a very powerful full range DB

cabinet that will carry the stage in the mid sized auditoriums here in St. Louis. (500 to 700 seats) Mikes retired at the moment so there's no way to get a new one anyway. Just my take.

 

[Keyser Soze]

It sounds to me like you're seeking a little more "body" to your sound, more "heft." I have been experimenting for years and have tried most of the "cool kids" speakers and some of the amps. But the thing that seems to add that "special sauce" is putting some sort of tube in the signal path, either as a preamp or last in the chain as a DI.

As crazy as it may sound, even with a toy box full of toys, lately I've been playing my upright into a Broughton P-15 tube preamp and then into the input of my Mesa/Boogie 800+. Then into a 1 X 12 and a 1 X 15. I'm playing with four or five horn players, a loud drummer and both guitar and keys and am being heard loud and clear, with great tone.

 

[Jim Dombrowski]

I would think that sound could be found in your tone controls. Although a more substantial speaker might help also.

 

[james condino]

Well There's two Fives and then there's two 5's in a MAS cabinet, which is a "horse of a different color". That said the MAS 2/5 is one of Mike's earlier cabinets and he moved on to different designs. My MAS 4x5.5 is a very powerful full range DB cabinet that will carry the stage in the mid sized auditoriums here in St. Louis. (500 to 700 seats) Mikes retired at the moment so there's no way to get a new one anyway. Just my take.

Maybe for your ears.

No disrespect towards Mike or his products, or you, but......

I had one of his giant cabs with about 8 small speakers and a big wave porting thing in the shop for a week and it was completely anemic compared to my ACME 4x10 or even the GK NEO 410; one of the worst overhyped cabs I've seen for my needs. An ACME B2 was far more satisfying. I play amplified to fill the room with great sound in loud situations, not to be obsessive about the weight on the load in. Your needs and mileage are likely different than mine.

For the original question, the Clarus is a great amplifier. Try using some different cabs- as many as you can- and you'll likely find the one that works great for your needs. I tried 21 different combinations before I settled on my current setup.

 

[massimo]

Thanks for all your replies, all have good advice. I'm not a beginner and have lot of experience with many different amps so i perfectly know that first i need a good acoustic sound from my fingers, and i'm not talking about volume, depht (for a trad double bass sound i don't like deep) or something i can achieve with tone controls or with valves (i have the Sarno BB and its nice). It has really something to do with the amp and the cabinet (and maybe the pickup). For sure my choice (Mas25 and Clarus) has portability as priority. It's difficult to describe sound with words, when i say" thick" i really mean "thick","body", "beefy", with "balls", like Spiros on steroids with firm attack (from my fingers) clear, strong and articulate sound. For sure it's not a "transparent sound" or an "acoustic sound" as its not a "magnetic pickup" kind of fretless sound. Probably of all your replies, James Condino approach ("anemic" is a good word to describe what i don't want) is the one that i should explore. For example sometimes i play with an old Polytone that is not far from the sound i like.... so i'm looking something as a Polytone sound but better . Has any of you tried Henriksen amps for double bass?

 

[Martin Beer]

A lot of the older 12“ and 15“ speaker combo amps have a box that's a little on the small side for the speaker, which in many designs causes a bump in sensitivity centred around 100—120Hz. That could be a part of what your hearing from some of the more old-school amp setups. In modern gear you might find that from the right compact 1x12“ — eliminating that hump for a more linear response is often a design goal of the more state-of-the-art systems.

 

[Wasnex]

Unfortunately I don't think there is really a simple answer, because we all have different tastes and the problem is extremely complicated. If you played through my rig, you might love it...or you might think it sounds awful.

Ultimately selecting the right components for your system, and then applying appropriate EQ is the approach I would use. The best way to select the right components is to actually try them. Specs don't really give you enough info to make the best decision. Reading a bunch of reviews can also help, but many of them are so subjective that they don't actually give you any useful info.

I read a bunch of articles to try and make an informed decision before special ordering my first bass rig. 15 seconds after turning it on, I realized I had made the wrong decision on an extremely expensive rig. If your curious it was a brand new MTI era Ampeg SVT with the matching 810...an awesome rig loved by millions, but not my sound.

I think meeting your goals will depend on creating the right frequency response contour and also selecting a cab that has the degree of damping that meets your needs. The right frequency response contour is subjective...so you have to actually know what you like.

Damping of speaker cabs relates to how they are tuned. In general, sealed cabs are assumed to be tighter, but I don't believe this is completely true. Ported cabs tend to play lower and louder, and they can be overdamped, underdamped, or critically damped. Which is best depends on what you are trying to achieve...damping is about trading one quality for another and choosing the compromise that best meets your tuning goals.

Also you need to treat the bass, pickup, amp, cab, and acoustics as a system with a feedback loop. Frequency response of this system is not true to the instrument, and the frequency response contour changes depending up the strength of the feedback loop. So you it's likely you will need to tailor the EQ to your volume level.

As far as EQ strategy, I suspect you will benefit from an HPF. IMHO most of our impression of fat is encoded in the frequency range between about 70 and 120hz. It's unusual for bass cabs to actually play super low. If you try to force a ported cab to play below it's intended pass band, it wastes power, degrades the sound, and puts the speaker at risk of damage. A properly set HPF protects the driver and can actually improve sound, increase headroom, and give the perception of stronger/more focused lows.

Achieving the goal is not easy or necessarily completely achievable. So adjusting your expectations is also important.

 

[Happy Steve]

@massimo perhaps doing some testing with a parametric EQ could give you some idea of the EQ profile you are looking for? Maybe it could even provide a solution with the other gear you are presently using?

 

[Decomposer]

Try Genssler JR strings. Now I can get that sound with any amp.

 

[sean_on_bass]

Question for experienced double bass players: which amp (or cabinet) has the most "thick" sound for jazz pizzicato? I try to explain with my words what i mean with "thick":a sound that is robust, full, tight, with some "balls",that emphasize the attack and is not mushy and undefined. Naturally a great pizz sound comes mostly from your fingers but my impression is that amps in the last 20 years (digital power amps, class D and neodimium speakers) miss the point. Sure those amps are light, powerful, sound natural but they lack "balls". I have an AI Clarus head and a MAS25 speaker: they sound wonderful, very clean and MBOL but i feel there is something lacking. The sound i'm after is the kind of sound Ray Brown had on most of his '80 recordings when he used red Spiros, maybe not very natural but a great sound indeed . Any advice about a "ballsy" amplifier and/or speaker that go in that direction?

I think to get closer to that amplified tone you'd want to look at more bass guitar oriented amps. I get something in that realm using my Elf 1x10 combo. The smaller speaker cuts out some of that low end on it's own, and since it is only 200 watts it can kind of "max out" causing the sound to have that tightness you mentioned. Then on top of that i use Spiro's which accentuate certain tonal frequencies in the mids that some other strings don't quite do.

The thing about this tone though is most players don't really want it these days. They want a full range miced through the PA sound from an amp. So getting gear really developed for double bass is not going to produce it.