amps and ethics?

[Transverz]

I never prescribed that if you couldn't do anything about it, go drastic, like buying a mack truck. Now THAT is silly thinking. No one person can solve the world's problems, and everyone knows it. But that also doesn't mean that it's right to be so vehement about one thing while turning a cheek to something else you are doing that may be just as bad.

I merely stated that if you are so worried about the amp you are using, why turn a blind eye to other things? Okay, so the amp you get is produced by a "moral" company (that in itself is almost an oxymoron). But yet, you MIGHT have a bass that was created using child/slave labor?! And you don't feel the least bit bad about this? I am guessing if you find out that it did, you WOULD feel bad about this. My point is that if you don't find out about it, amongst all your other items, you potentially are doing something that is against your morals. Hence my "hypocritical" comment.

I agree with "if everyone did one good thing the world would be a better place". Trust me, I literally try to do a good deed everyday. But what if the next minute I stole something from a store or beat someone up? What does my one good deed a day then say about me? I think you would say "so the hell what" to my good deeds and say I really wasn't a nice person. I personally would hate to try so hard to buy the right amp and yet have no moral obligations invested in finding out if the wood in my bass led to the deaths and homelessness of a species of wildlife, let alone the deforestation of an area.

Again, I commend anyone wanting to do anything they think is good in their life. I try myself. But I'm saying putting on the blinders to the rest of your life is not really living "morally". That's just what I call "gimmicky". Sorry, just being honest. If that makes me an @$$#*le then so be it. No offence to anyone and none taken. Just my worthless opinion.

-T

 

[bmc]

I'm just interested in reading the compelling evidence that these manufacturers use slave labour. I have dealings with Chinese companies that do not employ slave labour. In my dealings with Chinese companies over the past 14 years, none employed slaves. Albeit, it was not in manufacuring and I don't deny China's record on Human Rights.

I get the impression from TB threads that anything Made in China = made by underpaid slaves.

Can anyone direct me to links that verify that Ashdown and Behringer support such operations?

 

[Marlat]

I never prescribed that if you couldn't do anything about it, go drastic, like buying a mack truck. Now THAT is silly thinking. No one person can solve the world's problems, and everyone knows it. But that also doesn't mean that it's right to be so vehement about one thing while turning a cheek to something else you are doing that may be just as bad.

I merely stated that if you are so worried about the amp you are using, why turn a blind eye to other things? Okay, so the amp you get is produced by a "moral" company (that in itself is almost an oxymoron). But yet, you MIGHT have a bass that was created using child/slave labor?! And you don't feel the least bit bad about this? I am guessing if you find out that it did, you WOULD feel bad about this. My point is that if you don't find out about it, amongst all your other items, you potentially are doing something that is against your morals. Hence my "hypocritical" comment.

You seem to be missing the point. If someone wants to do one good thing, one little contribution to make the world a better place, why make a big deal about them possibly being a hypocrite? Why not just say, "hey good work", it would be good if everyone did a little to contribute to making the world a better place. I still dont get your point, are you saying if his bass is made from child labour, then he shouldnt try to buy an amp thats not? Seems a little counter intuitive to me.

Do you even know that this guy doesnt have a bass made from sustainable wood and live in a solar powered house?

I personally would hate to try so hard to buy the right amp and yet have no moral obligations invested in finding out if the wood in my bass led to the deaths and homelessness of a species of wildlife, let alone the deforestation of an area.

Again, an all or nothing approach. Why not just accept that a good deed is what it is. Why make a big deal about what good deeds this guy might not be doing?

Again, I commend anyone wanting to do anything they think is good in their life. I try myself. But I'm saying putting on the blinders to the rest of your life is not really living "morally". That's just what I call "gimmicky". Sorry, just being honest. If that makes me an @$$#*le then so be it. No offence to anyone and none taken. Just my worthless opinion.
-T

Sounds like rather than commending or encouraging you are trying to tell this guy that hes not really moral and should just give up.....what would you suggest instead?

 

[A9X]

You seem to be missing the point...... {big snip}

+1. You saved me a lot of typing.

 

[Psycho Bass Guy]

Another thing to consider: while the relative conditions of foreign-owned Chinese factory workers MAY be marginally better than other employment in China, the communist government maintains control and partial ownership of the factories and works to support their well-being by doing things like artificially devaluing their currency exchange rate and making trade laws that undermine the manufacturing base in other countries. IOW, supporting Chinese manufacturing has a LOT more to do with international politics than just the workers' treatment. In the 80's in the electronics industry, such policies were rightfully called "trade wars" when the nation in question was Japan, but since Wal Mart is a major contributor (the largest) to the current US administration, and surprise, suprise, one of the largest importers of Chinese goods, China maintains "most favored" trade status with the US while it undermines the US economy.

 

[bmc]

Another thing to consider: while the relative conditions of foreign-owned Chinese factory workers MAY be marginally better than other employment in China, the communist government maintains control and partial ownership of the factories and works to support their well-being by doing things like artificially devaluing their currency exchange rate and making trade laws that undermine the manufacturing base in other countries. IOW, supporting Chinese manufacturing has a LOT more to do with international politics than just the workers' treatment. In the 80's in the electronics industry, such policies were rightfully called "trade wars" when the nation in question was Japan, but since Wal Mart is a major contributor (the largest) to the current US administration, and surprise, suprise, one of the largest importers of Chinese goods, China maintains "most favored" trade status with the US while it undermines the US economy.

And as we continue to gravitate towards lower priced products, we not only undermine Made in USA, but also enable these countries to build industries, grow their competitive position, retool, build competencies and eventually expertise and squeeze out competition in higher cost countries. So try as you will to buy local, the stuff made abroad should and could become better quality over time while maintaining competitive pricing.

 

[Psycho Bass Guy]

...or it could and probably will do what happened with US auto manufacturing in the 70's: costs will rise and quality will go down as they develop a stanglehold on the market. The biggest difference is that there won't be any other source of competition like the Japanese became in the 80's to drive the market and re-developing US manufactruing will prove too expensive. Things will get MUCH worse before they get any better.

 

[bmc]

...or it could and probably will do what happened with US auto manufacturing in the 70's: costs will rise and quality will go down as they develop a stanglehold on the market. The biggest difference is that there won't be any other source of competition like the Japanese became in the 80's to drive the market and re-developing US manufactruing will prove too expensive. Things will get MUCH worse before they get any better.

I think you are absolutely right. We are starting to be a whole lot more comfortable with product made in Korea and sold under US brands. The message being sent by the vendors of these products is clear: I can get my product consistently made well for significantly less cost. I think the quality will continue to rise and we can expect even better with time. Globalization enables tremendous market access. As China grows wealthier, their kids will be tuning in to MTV and they will want to buy gear. The market potential in that country far outstrips North America. With 1.5 billion people, steady growth, developing industries, why buy anything made abroad?

I still want to see some proof Ashdown and Behringer employing slaves.

 

[b-ace!]

wow! Its good to see so many people getting involved in the discussion!

I got a few points to make, for a start I use a 2nd hand bass and don't own an amp at the moment. I used to have a 30 Watt torque amp which I bought 11 years ago, before I started to think about these kind of things.

secondly I think as consumers we have alot more power with our money than people realise. its the, money=one vote arguement (see propagandhi-Less Talk, More Rock inlay )

thirdly Mark Latimour, Dharmabassm, Nick man and everyone else who hasn't shot me down, thank you.

and finally I got in touch with ashdown and they said that only their combos, MAG cabs and electirc blue series are produce in china. they are produce by a company called 'alto' and he assured me that conditions are amazing out there. he said "its as clean as a hospital" and gave me these websites to check out but they don't really give much information.

www.altoproaudio.com
Invalid Link Removed

I thought to myself, if I am going to find out about the true conditions of the ashdown plant in china, asking ashdown is probably not the best way to go about it. So I got in touch with the people at ethicalconsumer.org and they told me they don't have any information on musical equipment at all but I should get in touch with the ashdown and ask them if their plant in china has a code of conduct which is independently verified and who does the verification. So I gave them a ring and gave them my email address and they're going to get back to me. When I know I'll let you guys know. As someone said before this sort of information really should be more readily available.

 

[Petebass]

Alto? I don't know if this helps but Alto sell reasonably priced rack mount gear which in Australia at least, is affordable yet more expensive than Behringer. Hopefully that means their workers are getting a better deal. We'll soon find out..... let us know how you go b-ace.

 

[bmc]

wow! Its good to see so many people getting involved in the discussion!


thirdly Mark Latimour, Dharmabassm, Nick man and everyone else who hasn't shot me down, thank you.

Hey...I didn't shoot you down. What am I chopped liver?

 

[cetera]

It is SO nice to see some people caring about the welfare and working conditions of their fellow human beings. I commend your efforts and unselfish way of thinking. Though we may not be able to directly affect Economic Policy etc we can all make our individual stands and feel good in the knowledge that we are making good choices on moral and caring grounds.

It would be nice to know if some of our fave manufacturers of bass gear adhere to a policy of excellent pay and conditions for their workers in developing / third world countries? It would be horrible after all to find that the instrument in your hand was made by a poor child in sweatshop conditions. Paying these people low wages just keeps them poor while the rich nations wallow in their greed.

Many luthiers adhere to using wood from sustainable sources and this is to be commended. Let's hope that the mass produced instruments and backline are built with a similar consideration for the workers....

I know we have some representatives from well known manufacturers on these boards. Maybe they would care to enlighten us.... or are they apprehensive about their policies?

 

[Transverz]

Cetera just stated what I was trying to say in my unrefined, brash way that I seem to have, especially at 2:00am in the morning. He/she wanted to find out more about not only his amp but all other aspects of his musicianship such as his instruments, backline, etc.

Again, I whole-heartedly commend b-ace and the rest for being concerned. I'm really not trying to shoot anybody down. Please find any statement in my posts saying "give up, you might as well not try, forget it, what is the point of doing ANYTHING, that is dumb...". No. Though I probably was rough about saying so, I really meant that reaching farther out into one's life in this same moral way is just as important as focusing in on one thing. In other words, I was encouraging an uneding effort to further and follow through with this kind of thinking, or else open up oneself to calls of hypocritism for not doing anything about other things they CAN do something about.

I will apologize for coming off that I was unencouraging good things. That wasn't my intention. I am all about good things but so much MORE of it, maybe in such a way that makes me impatient and idealistic to a fault. I admit that I am still working on that. Best of luck...

-T

 

[DaveDeVille]

I still want to see some proof Ashdown and Behringer employing slaves.

i thought we wern't going to get involved in this discussion anymore ... this could really open Pandera's Box...
actually , what is the accepted meaning of "slave " ... is it just underpaid workers , no civil rights , abusive employers ??
that sounds alot like the America of the 1800's and early 1900's...

i always thought slaves feared for their lives daily , as it was completely at their masters whim . i've spoken to a former slave who described exactly that which i just described { he had escaped from Sudan } slavery is an ugly , despicable thing ...
i also would like to see proof which companies { if any } are using slave labor .
i would hope most U.S. companies overseas are at least paying a living wage , comparable { in a practicle sense } to what a living wage would be to their U.S. counterparts .
maybe i'm really streching here , but the repercussions of American consumers finding out that they were indeed using "slave" labor , should and would have a devestating effect on the offending company ...
as always , jmo ... sorry for actually joining in on this one .
there will be no winners , just upset feelings ...no offense intended...

 

[bmc]

i thought we wern't going to get involved in this discussion anymore ... this could really open Pandera's Box...
actually , what is the accepted meaning of "slave " ... is it just underpaid workers , no civil rights , abusive employers ??
that sounds alot like the America of the 1800's and early 1900's...

i always thought slaves feared for their lives daily , as it was completely at their masters whim . i've spoken to a former slave who described exactly that which i just described { he had escaped from Sudan } slavery is an ugly , despicable thing ...
i also would like to see proof which companies { if any } are using slave labor .
i would hope most U.S. companies overseas are at least paying a living wage , comparable { in a practicle sense } to what a living wage would be to their U.S. counterparts .
maybe i'm really streching here , but the repercussions of American consumers finding out that they were indeed using "slave" labor , should and would have a devestating effect on the offending company ...
as always , jmo ... sorry for actually joining in on this one .
there will be no winners , just upset feelings ...no offense intended...

Thanks David. Slavery is a strong term, and has a brings forward unthinkable images. I think too many people have conveniently jumped on a bandwagon on these threads with this terminology. They use the term confidently suggesting there is evidence.

B-Ace ...congrats on doing your research. Please keep us informed.

 

[brianrost]

Hartke amps have never been made in the USA (the cabs, yes). They made them in Korea at first, have they started making them in China yet?

I think the GK Backline amps are also made in the Orient as are the low priced amps from Marshall, Vox and Orange.

BTW, I lived in Korea in the 1970s when they were slowly becoming a manufacturing powerhouse and "slave labor" is not too far off the mark for what I saw back then.

 

[DaveDeVille]

Thanks David. Slavery is a strong term, and has a brings forward unthinkable images. I think too many people have conveniently jumped on a bandwagon on these threads with this terminology. They use the term confidently suggesting there is evidence.

i agree , the term is used so lightly , by so many people , i don't think they really grasp the awful truth of the matter ...
again , there are no winners in this discussion .

ethics , the word dosen't mean as much as it should to most people...
" be excellent to each other "... it couldn't hurt to try .

 

[Jerrold Tiers]

I know we have some representatives from well known manufacturers on these boards. Maybe they would care to enlighten us.... or are they apprehensive about their policies?

Since Ampeg is (so far) made in USA, I don't have much to add.

Even made in USA has parts content from wherever, though. Germany, China, Korea, Taiwan, US, UK, Italy, those all come to mind immediately as parts sources.

As one who has been to China and seen factories, I will say that there are various kinds.

I never saw a prison factory, although I won't say there couldn't be one. We are talking about a somewhat totalitarian regime here.

Most are simply dormitory factories. The workers are from hundreds of miles away, and stay in a dormitory. I don't know what they pay for "board", could be a "Pullman Illinois" situation for all I know. Anyway, they come to work and after a while they go home and are about the richest person in the village for a while.

What would be slave labor pay rates here, are really quite good there. You have no idea how poor the average person is outside the city...like back up in the hills here.

Apparently there is labor competition also. There were openings at a factory with "good pay", and a line around the block waiting to apply.

 

[Stinsok]

You know, the people making MIM Fenders aren't being payed that well either.

 

[bmc]

I used to live in the Persian Gulf and was horrified to learn that the laborers from the Sub Continent were earning USD100 a month. These men had housing provided as well as transportation. They chose to work in Bahrain because the money went a whole lot further back home than what they earned at home. Is that considered exploiting someone? They were happy pleasant people that were very helpful, very friendly and kept returning after their vacation.

David...I want to touch on your reference to slaves one last time. I detected a sensitivity to its meaning from an American perspective coming from a period in history that caused a lot of pain. We shouldn't throw the term around as casually as we have, until we have some supporting evidence.

Ampeg insider...thanks for that info. China is a facinating place going through many changes and seemingly none at all.