Double Bass An Ehrlund blog, sort of

[VegasGutPlucker]

I prefer to believe Erhlund simply miniaturized Slam Stewart and secured him, a la Christ, to the three corners of the triangle. There, he listens to the sound of my bass and, as best he can with such tiny vocal chords, sings into a tiny Neuman 47 sometimes making on the fly chordal substitutions for me, adjusting my intonation here and there. The preamp, then, is simple an octave reducer bringing his tiny squeeling mouse pitches back down to the bass register.
Simple stuff guys, really. Turtles all the way down.

 

[Champagne]

Time to cut me some triangle piezos!

I am shocked by the patent and the ad writing. If it is true, being a piezo, I wouldn't be caught dead with one, well, only if it was 100 or 200 bucks.

 

[engedi1]

hah. Turtles all the way down. One of my grandpa's (RIP) favorite jokes.

 

[Mark Gollihur]

Göran's response:

The EAP contains more than "piezo" element and it is not possible to find that in the patent documents.

I think perhaps that my guess about "early patents" is on the mark. However, it does appear that there is SOME form of a piezo, probably triangular as per the original patent, in there.

So, I stand corrected - perhaps there was something lost in translation when he originally described the pickup, but in my discussion with him, my very clear inference was that it "wasn't a piezo." Period. It seems he MEANT to say that it's not a piezo element only. An important distinction.

Regardless, it certainly does not sound like any pickup that is based solely on piezo technology, so whatever "hybrid" sort of tech he has going on is working, and worth the money, IMHO.

 

[MrSidecar]

Guys GUYS! Calm down, I think we should.

[JOKE_RANT] The direction this thread has taken reminds me of what is going on in Europe with horse meat being found in "tv dinner" food, where there's supposed to be beef or pork. I mean, horse is fine (isn't real salami made of donkey??), only our cultural inhibitions and implications of horses being "pets" of a kind make this a touchy subject. Seems like some out here place their cultural inhibition against piezos above their desire to actually sound as good as possible.[/JOKE_RANT]

Seriously though, IMHO, the EAP can be made of horse manure, as long as Göran knows the trick to manipulate horse manure to do the job that GREAT, he deserves whatever is on the price tag.

Excuse me, I could not resist chiming in.

Best
Sidecar (a very happy EAP user, regardless of the ingredients)

 

[Ric Vice]

Guys GUYS! Calm down, I think we should.



Seriously though, IMHO, the EAP can be made of horse manure, as long as Göran knows the trick to manipulate horse manure to do the job that GREAT, he deserves whatever is on the price tag.

Excuse me, I could not resist chiming in.

Best
Sidecar (a very happy EAP user, regardless of the ingredients)

Good Point,
If you read the text on the Gollihur music site it says
"He made it a point to tell us that it is not just a simple piezo element -- which is the technology used by most other commonly available bass pickups.
It uses a special hybrid "contact mic" sort of design in conjunction with piezo technology to sense both vibration and sound, thereby getting a full, realistic signal without the characteristic "quack" of many piezo systems."
It's a hybrid device. Goran own words.

Ric

 

[fdeck]

So, being a piezo, would a hpf be beneficial then?

Not necessarily.

I suspect the nature of the element is less important than other factors in determining how much sub-harmonic stuff gets into the signal. In particular, the belly is somewhat removed from the bridge, and so there is probably some acousto-mechanical filtering going on.

Now, I regret just posting that patent reference up there without a bit more comment. The patent only tells what was going through Ehrlund's head at that point in time. We still don't know exactly what's in the EAP today. And there may be good reasons why he wouldn't patent a new design, namely the obscene cost of getting widespread patent coverage -- at least in US and Europe. Or he may feel that between his two patents, there are enough claims that protect him, even if he incorporates non-patented improvements into his new designs.

 

[Nathan Levine]

I prefer to believe Erhlund simply miniaturized Slam Stewart and secured him, a la Christ, to the three corners of the triangle. There, he listens to the sound of my bass and, as best he can with such tiny vocal chords, sings into a tiny Neuman 47 sometimes making on the fly chordal substitutions for me, adjusting my intonation here and there.

I've read some funny stuff on TB but this takes the cake. I hooted with laughter when I read this. LOL and just about fell down.

 

[drurb]

Good Point,
If you read the text on the Gollihur music site it says
"He made it a point to tell us that it is not just a simple piezo element -- which is the technology used by most other commonly available bass pickups.
It uses a special hybrid "contact mic" sort of design in conjunction with piezo technology to sense both vibration and sound, thereby getting a full, realistic signal without the characteristic "quack" of many piezo systems."
It's a hybrid device. Goran own words.

Ric

Yes, that's what it says now, thanks to the Gollihurs being straight arrows.

Not necessarily.

I suspect the nature of the element is less important than other factors in determining how much sub-harmonic stuff gets into the signal. In particular, the belly is somewhat removed from the bridge, and so there is probably some acousto-mechanical filtering going on.

I agree. As I posted earlier...

As I've posted before, I see no utility to following the Ehrlund pre with a high-pass filter if your purpose is to vanquish infrasonics. The pickup, being essentially a microphone, will not pass them for at least two reasons: 1) the top of the bass simply doesn't transmit them, at least in the course of normal playing and 2) the response of the microphone is likely attenuated in the infrasonic region. Now, if you like having a high-pass filter for tonal shaping, as Thumpie does, then you might wish to have it there as you do with other pickups.

Now, I regret just posting that patent reference up there without a bit more comment. The patent only tells what was going through Ehrlund's head at that point in time. We still don't know exactly what's in the EAP today. And there may be good reasons why he wouldn't patent a new design, namely the obscene cost of getting widespread patent coverage -- at least in US and Europe. Or he may feel that between his two patents, there are enough claims that protect him, even if he incorporates non-patented improvements into his new designs.

It's certainly possible and I suppose we should wait for more information. I wish to reiterate three points I made earlier:

1) Regardless of the principle of operation, it is a great device.
2) No one should ever be (intentionally) misled about the product.
3) The Gollihurs are blameless in all of this.

 

[PB+J]

I think the patent tells more than what was going on in his head. It tells what he regards as unique and particular to this design--the triangular shape. That's what's patented, a triangular shaped pickup using a piezoelecrtric element. He's got patents on triangle shaped condenser mics too, so fishman, don't go making any triangle shaped stuff!

He got the patent in late 2004. The pickup appeared in the US in early 2006. He could have been working on additions to the design all along, and chosen not to patent them, or they might not be patentable, but, together with the shape, make for a much better pickup. Or they might not exist. The fact that it was claimed as specifically not being a piezo was clearly misleading at best and dead wrong at worst and makes me inclined to be skeptical.

As I said, I like it a lot and will keep using it regardless of what it's made of. I'm just interested in the pickup as technology--I just want to know how it works so well.

 

[Robin Ruscio]

Wow, this is really interesting.

I'm sitting tight on any new pickup right now because I'm going to be flipping some amps, and I want to see David Gage's new pickup as well when it comes out. I'd love to try one of these out sometime for sure. Even if it is piezo and not a condenser.

 

[drurb]

Wow, this is really interesting.

I'm sitting tight on any new pickup right now because I'm going to be flipping some amps, and I want to see David Gage's new pickup as well when it comes out. I'd love to try one of these out sometime for sure. Even if it is piezo and not a condenser.

It's still the case that the EAP is the best pickup I've ever used.

 

[Robin Ruscio]

It's still the case that the EAP is the best pickup I've ever used.

Have you heard Gage's new one? I didn't think it was out yet. Looks like a cross between the FC and Realist.

 

[PB+J]

I'd agree it's the best pickup I've tried. I was a diehard Dyn-B man for a long time, because I hated the sound of piezos, but the Ehrlund retired the Dyn-B. The realist never worked for me, but I'll be interested to see what Gage comes out with

 

[Robin Ruscio]

Went back and read this whole thread. I'm gonna have to try this, aren't I?

 

[Thumpie]

Went back and read this whole thread. I'm gonna have to try this, aren't I?

Yep. I resisted for a long time. I'm still testing the thing and trying to find the sweetest spot, but so far it's the best sounding I've tried.

Trying it on a gig will be the final test, but even if it cannot handle the loudest/crappiest venues, I plan to keep it for when I *can* use it.

 

[kevteop]

Agree with the other EAP users above, regardless of its construction it's the best solution for amplifying a double bass that I've found. I don't really care what's under the hood, it's not important.

 

[Robin Ruscio]

I've heard some comparisons to other pickups and the DPA 4099B mic. Has anyone used the EAP with a the DPA, either through a mixer like the the EDB-1 or by sending the mic to FOH?

One of the reasons I was not interested in this initially was that I already use the DPA on gig where I am either playing lots of arco or have FOH. I don't really use the DPA on casuals where I'm only playing through my amp. I'm wondering if I'd still enjoy using the DPA out front when I have a good and willing soundman. (Most of them love it.)

 

[drurb]

Have you heard Gage's new one? I didn't think it was out yet. Looks like a cross between the FC and Realist.

I haven't heard the LifeLine. Given that enormous qualification, from what I know, it shares a feature in common with just about every other pickup we discuss. Specifically, that the options, in terms of placement, are very limited. The Lifeline is sandwiched between the bridge and the adjuster. The Ehrlund, on the other hand, can be placed in one of many, many locations. The necessity to find the sweet spot is something that, I suppose, scares off some players. The way I look at it, it's that one has the option of placing it in a variety of locations to suit one's tastes that is such a benefit.

Now, for all I know, the Lifeline may sound great when it sits where it was designed to sit. I have a hard time, however, understanding how it could capture the temporal attack/decay profile in a manner even approaching the quality of the way the Ehrlund does. My understanding is that that's a function of the Ehrlund transducing what the table is doing. I have never heard any other pickup do that. Of course, a microphone is the gold standard when it comes to that characteristic.

This is merely conjecture (but, informed, I believe ). The proof is in the hearing.

 

[Thumpie]

I've heard some comparisons to other pickups and the DPA 4099B mic. Has anyone used the EAP with a the DPA, either through a mixer like the the EDB-1 or by sending the mic to FOH?

One of the reasons I was not interested in this initially was that I already use the DPA on gig where I am either playing lots of arco or have FOH. I don't really use the DPA on casuals where I'm only playing through my amp. I'm wondering if I'd still enjoy using the DPA out front when I have a good and willing soundman. (Most of them love it.)

So far--and I'm still searching for the sweetest spot--this thing rules for arco. Absolutely don't let arco scare you off. It SOUNDS GOOD, even better than the pizz. which also SOUNDS VERY GOOD.