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'Anonymous' hacktivists become web vigilantes

One thing, then I'll try to stay away. Power has always been said to be according to "the will of the people" in this country. Hasn't been that way alot but that's what people believe. I can stand firm in my saying more people would rather see Westboro gone than continue with their bigotry. Free speech be damned. There are many issues to subjective to say "this is wrong, this right", but the things Westboro spews out has to call to your better judgement, we all know this is wrong. I feel no problem with saying some people shouldn't have free speech and if they do, at least have it on probation status...

As far as I'm concerned, the stuff that the WBC says is disgusting and obnoxious and hurtful. Even with that said, they still have a right to express their views. They are NOT entitled to allow that expression of free speech to cause harm to others nor to interfere with other people's practicing of their relligious freedoms, including funeral services. Setting up protest free zones protects the WBC's free speech and also protects the rights of families to practice their religious freedoms (funeral services) freely and in peace.
 
How about the W.B.C. participating in a USO show? They could entertain the troops while exercising their 1st amendment rights by complaining about having to clear their own way out of a minefield. Spectators could wave hints & tips written on large placards...
 
I'm sure, while enjoying your right to free speech, in your lifetime, you've said things that offend others. Should you have your right to free speech taken away because of this? Its on a larger scale, yes, but in essence, thats all the WBC have done - offend people exercising their free speech.

Apparently your legal system doesn't see what the WBC do as a crime. While I don't agree with it, neither do I. Crime against humanity? I don't think so. Removing their right to free speech, however, would be.

What hitler did wasn't illegal in germany, either.

just sayin'.
 
I would respectfully disagree.

The WBC is infringing on the "rights" of the families to greave in peace.

They are infringing on me and my religion by creating a inaccurate and slanderous view of Christianity and the Judeo-Christian God.

I am a huge supporter of free speech but that speech often impedes on other's rights. Does my right to call a black person the N-word overrule their right to not be verbally attacked? This is what I meant when I said it is not black and white (no racial overtones intended)

The truth is, we do not have free speech in this country. We cannot simply say anything that comes into our mind. Even the mere mention of many acts will have us silenced. I cannot pretend to be a terrorist on an airplane, I cannot go around town calling people names (the police will remove you from the area).

Try and go around town calling a gay man a "******" and telling him God hates him (The WBC's mantra) and see how long it takes for the police to silence you.


Are Anonymous criminals? maybe, but they are smarter than the authorities (and will probably remain so) so yes they are enjoying the fact that they can't be held to any type of accountability.

We have no right to greeve in peace. You have no right of protecting your religion from unwanted press. You have no right to not be verbally attacked. I don't think you have a clear grasp on what our rights really are.

EDIT: Sorry Sloasdaylight, didn't see your post covering this topic already.
 
Good thing someone got the Hitler reference in. No thread is complete without it... :eyebrow:

Mmm... Oh.., why not!

hitler-watermelon.gif


:D
 
Deluge of Sound -

I actually agree with you in principle. In a perfect world your view would work very well. I just do not think that in application it is effective.

The laws that are there to protect the quiet voice are often abused by the loudest ones.

Just an old pessimist here though.

I just had to quote the bolded part here. It sums things up nicely. I'm also an old pessimist. But that's because the true definition of a pessimist is 'an optimist with experience'.

I don't want anyone to think I don't support the WBC in their right to say whatever repugnant thing they want to. I just have to point out that they are choosing the consequence that will come with it. Part of any right to do something is the right to suffer the consequence of that action. And because they've taken the actions that they have I believe it's only a matter of WHEN they'll be killed by a justifiably enraged family member of a slandered fallen warrior, and not for eaxample, IF they will be.
 
Ordinarily a valid concern. But in Phelps' case I suspect even Mahatma Ghandhi would say "Yeah. He had it coming."



I actually have a pretty hard time imagining anyone working this hard to make EVERYONE hate him. Is anyone actually a fan of the WBC?

No, but the U.S.' first amendment seems to be pretty popular.

I too sympathize with the widely held desire that the hateful, childhood-warping adult members of the Westboro Baptist Church (a number of whom have left or been banished) be treated to a just and long-overdue comeuppance. I just hope that no decent person's life has to be ruined in the process.

Bigots like the W.B.C. prove that this world needs all the good people it can get.

--------

For the benefit of TalkBass members who aren't up to speed on the nature of who we're discussing here:

WBC: "Exploitation of the Children" by David Doughty
 
Good thing someone got the Hitler reference in. No thread is complete without it... :eyebrow:

i aim to please :D

Goodwin's Law holds true once more.

How about you put together a less generic argument and then I'll address it happily. No disrespect intended, but the "Hitler" arguments are REALLY lame.

Why soy-ten-ly. And since the "arguments" consisted of, IIRC, one remark by me, I guess it would be kinda lame for people who have no sense of humor.

I am all for the right to free speech. it is a right, and everyone has it. We, as humans, have agreed that people have these rights as long as a person doesn't violate an agreed-upon rule that permits the people to remove that right from that someone. However, just because there isn't an agreed-upon rule that states that this is a violation worthy of removing the right to free speech, doesn't mean that some people, maybe even a plurality or majority, consider it an offense worthy of removing the right - only that the specific people who the majority have entrusted to act in their behalf don't consider it an offense. Because of the ever-shifting weight of power in this democracy, the group of people holding the power rarely have the same opinion as the plurality/majority of the people that the powerful rule over, it makes complete sense that what is, and what should be, considered a violation worthy of removing the right to free speech isn't the same. Because of stagnation in legislation, unwillingness to change, and general laziness of the american public, legislation, and media, this will probably not change. I contend that the W."B.C" willingly, knowingly, and continually commits acts that should be considered an offense punishable by the removal of their right to free speech.

(In this same sense, what Hitler did to the jews was legal, and thus went unpunished in Nazi Germany, even though the plurality/majority of Nazi Germany more than likely considered it to be a grave violation of rules that would render any person, sane or otherwise, completely stripped of any and all human rights. Thus, Hitler and Nazi Germany is an extreme example of the same general idea of what is at happening here at present times with the W."B.C." :P I digress..)

Does that make it right? No, it does not. Can something be done about it? Yes. Is that something legal? It is a grey matter. Anon is acting in what is technically an illegal zone, but because of jurisdictions being drawn the way they are, there is nothing to be done about it. Are they justified? I assure you, I could write a paper/thesis/book on the subject. I don't feel like it, and I won't. In light of the evidence that the original letter from "Anon" was forged by the W.B.C themselves, IMO it acts as an informal declaration of e-war upon Anon, which the W.B.C stupidly attempted to do to gather more media attention and was rightly and thoroughly shut down. They did it to themselves, and deserve everything that comes their way, from Anon, /b/tards, th3j3st3r, and all the other left-wing hactivists of the world.

(A theoretical example, going back to Goodwin's law, would be comparing this to Lichtenstein telling Nazi Germany to "bring it". All bark, and no teeth, or even jaw muscles. Again, I only make this reference to poke you for being defensive against Hitler reference. I do it for the lulz.)

P.S: I'm pretty sure I haven't wrote this much in one post/topic/idea since I graduated high school two years ago. Feels nice.

P.P.S: I intentionally quotate the B.C in W."B.C." because, even though I am an athiest, even I believe that any attempt to actually consider this inbred clan of humans a "baptist church" to be a slap to the face of anyone who considers themselves a believer in the Muslim-Judeo-Christian diety, regardless of division or sect. I would consider abbreviating them as W.C, for "Westboro Cult", well before i consider dropping the sarcastic quotations.
 
I am all for the right to free speech. it is a right, and everyone has it. We, as humans, have agreed that people have these rights as long as a person doesn't violate an agreed-upon rule that permits the people to remove that right from that someone. However, just because there isn't an agreed-upon rule that states that this is a violation worthy of removing the right to free speech, doesn't mean that some people, maybe even a plurality or majority, consider it an offense worthy of removing the right - only that the specific people who the majority have entrusted to act in their behalf don't consider it an offense. Because of the ever-shifting weight of power in this democracy, the group of people holding the power rarely have the same opinion as the plurality/majority of the people that the powerful rule over, it makes complete sense that what is, and what should be, considered a violation worthy of removing the right to free speech isn't the same. Because of stagnation in legislation, unwillingness to change, and general laziness of the american public, legislation, and media, this will probably not change. I contend that the W."B.C" willingly, knowingly, and continually commits acts that should be considered an offense punishable by the removal of their right to free speech.

(In this same sense, what Hitler did to the jews was legal, and thus went unpunished in Nazi Germany, even though the plurality/majority of Nazi Germany more than likely considered it to be a grave violation of rules that would render any person, sane or otherwise, completely stripped of any and all human rights. Thus, Hitler and Nazi Germany is an extreme example of the same general idea of what is at happening here at present times with the W."B.C." :P I digress..)

Does that make it right? No, it does not. Can something be done about it? Yes. Is that something legal? It is a grey matter. Anon is acting in what is technically an illegal zone, but because of jurisdictions being drawn the way they are, there is nothing to be done about it. Are they justified? I assure you, I could write a paper/thesis/book on the subject. I don't feel like it, and I won't. In light of the evidence that the original letter from "Anon" was forged by the W.B.C themselves, IMO it acts as an informal declaration of e-war upon Anon, which the W.B.C stupidly attempted to do to gather more media attention and was rightly and thoroughly shut down. They did it to themselves, and deserve everything that comes their way, from Anon, /b/tards, th3j3st3r, and all the other left-wing hactivists of the world.

(A theoretical example, going back to Goodwin's law, would be comparing this to Lichtenstein telling Nazi Germany to "bring it". All bark, and no teeth, or even jaw muscles. Again, I only make this reference to poke you for being defensive against Hitler reference. I do it for the lulz.)

P.S: I'm pretty sure I haven't wrote this much in one post/topic/idea since I graduated high school two years ago. Feels nice.

P.P.S: I intentionally quotate the B.C in W."B.C." because, even though I am an athiest, even I believe that any attempt to actually consider this inbred clan of humans a "baptist church" to be a slap to the face of anyone who considers themselves a believer in the Muslim-Judeo-Christian diety, regardless of division or sect. I would consider abbreviating them as W.C, for "Westboro Cult", well before i consider dropping the sarcastic quotations.


This is much better Nate, and I, now, can totally understand your point! :) I get exactly where you're coming from, however I still disagree. I think that human rights should exist for ALL people, no matter what their crime. When you start making rules for who can and who cannot have their rights, you're on a very slippery slope. I think its a very dangerous precedent to create.

While I abhor the WBC and everything they stand for, and they may indeed be abusing their right to free speech, but in my eyes it is still their RIGHT to abuse.

I feel that such a short reply isn't sufficient to address your post in its entirety, but I've only a few minutes left of my lunch break and I wanted to get the basic idea of my opinion on the matter across. I felt this was more important than addressing each of your statements individually, as I would have liked to do.
 
We have no right to greeve in peace. You have no right of protecting your religion from unwanted press. You have no right to not be verbally attacked. I don't think you have a clear grasp on what our rights really are.

EDIT: Sorry Sloasdaylight, didn't see your post covering this topic already.

I actually have a very good grasp on my rights, actual rights not what everyone thinks they are.

Free speech does not cover speech that is hateful and offensive towards others. No one here really has any rights, just privilges the government gives them.

Also I do not think this is a free speech argument.

Is the WBC being silenced by legal methods? NO

The have free speech, and people are just reacting to what they are saying and fighting back.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE 1ST AMENDMENT!!!!! The first amendment does not give complete freedom of speech, just the safety of not having the government arrest you for it. I cannot say many things in many places without persicution.
 
As far as I'm concerned, the stuff that the WBC says is disgusting and obnoxious and hurtful. Even with that said, they still have a right to express their views. They are NOT entitled to allow that expression of free speech to cause harm to others nor to interfere with other people's practicing of their relligious freedoms, including funeral services. Setting up protest free zones protects the WBC's free speech and also protects the rights of families to practice their religious freedoms (funeral services) freely and in peace.

You mean like the free speech zone that universities have now?

Also the WBC has, as far as I'm aware, complied with all the permits they've been given to protest, and in the case that I linked to from yahoo, they were 1000 feet away from the church where the funeral took place, and, I believe, out of direct line of sight.
 

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