Absolutely this. I was in the business for years and it's nearly always the drums and a guitar. 9 times out of 10 all I can do is try to get the vocals above the stage volume and add a little balance. Usually, the drums and guitar aren't even in the mix... And that doesn't even count the "I need more in the monitors". Get in-ears, lose the amps and if the drummer doesn't know how to drum without beating the tar out of the drums, then gobo them (or go electronic) - especially if you are playing small spaces. THEN blame the sound guy if it's still too much. Also - yes, you aren't playing a concert so play accordingly.
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Another gig where we quit early because the crowd left.
- Thread starter 51PRI
- Start date
Pretty much. There’s very little if any magic left in the world of music these days. And what little is still left isn’t likely to be found in the local club or mainstream concert scene. "O quam cito transit gloria mundi" as Thomas à Kempis observed.
I've have the opposite happen. A little mom and pop neighborhood bar would hire our band in da 70s. It had bar and TV on one side and pool tables, stage and dance floor on the other. Always complain we were too loud, the "regulars" couldn't hear the TV. We never understood why they continue to hire us.
They hired us for NYE. Same situation we and our friends on one side, the regulars and TV on the other. It got close to the magical hour, they came over and asked us to stop playing so they could watch the Ball drop at Time Square and switch back and forth from that and Johnny Carson.
So we went out to the step van, toked up and hung out. They came out to get us, said they were done. So we came back in, finished the night with everybody on our side of the bar dancing. Got a tip over our regular pay. They tipped us for not playing through Johnny.
Did the patrons leave early or did they stay and enjoy the band?
What's so magical about a bunch of middle-to-late-middle-aged people up on stage JUST playing songs? Bands need to try harder. It's not a show if you just stand up there in cargo-shorts and khaki pocket-pants and play stuff Mustang Sally. What do those bands expect if their audience has aged out of the pub scene and are all in bed by 10pm?
I've been in bands that have readily taken gigs away from those types, because they kept insisting that if they were allowed to play that music, people would stay. They never did stay, so those bands got sidelined for groups like ours that covered a lot of the more recent stuff...
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Well, there was a time (possibly before yours) when the music and the experience of being there provided its own magic and was more than enough with no theatrics required.
Not any more apparently. Nowadays people are so overstimulated by the constant sensory barrage they’re subjected to that “just” listening and getting into anything isn’t enough. Audiences now require a full stage show with lights, their cameras, and plenty of action - or it “just” doesn’t work for them.
Different world. Different people. Different mindset. So it goes.
“It’s not the times, it’s just the dream that died.” as an old song put it.
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YupWell, there was a time (possibly before yours) when the music and the experience of being there provided its own magic and was more than enough with no theatrics required.
Not any more apparently. Nowadays people are so overstimulated by the constant sensory barrage they’re subjected to that “just” listening and getting into anything isn’t enough. Audiences now require a full stage show with lights, their cameras, and plenty of action - or it “just” doesn’t work for them.
Different world. Different people. Different mindset. So it goes.
“It’s not the times, it’s just the dream that died.” as an old song put it.
I use to go to listen to music.
In fact the artists I like, if you are not listening, you are missing the show.
I don't think that's quite right. We have no problem attracting younger people to dance and drink by playing what they listen to either now, or what they consider mildly-retro. If you want to play nothing newer than what came out in 1983, power to you, just don't expect your audience to stick around very late.
In one of my bands they are essentially a cocktail band... But to keep the interest of the event coordinators, we've "cocktailed" a lot of older music so that older generation can enjoy those songs that way - they seem to like THAT, but we write-out most of the guitar-slinging when we do that stuff.
This is why I am no longer gigging. My last band that I was in for about 4 years did this:
- Chose all material They liked, not what they anticipated a crowd would like.
- They played at ear bleeding volumes.
We chased many crowds away, and basically could never build up anything resembling a following.
Lots of gigs were 3 drunks sitting at the bar, no one else in sight.
Lead guitar couldn't get behind smaller, solid state amps. He rolled a large Marshall stack to every gig. When it was a new venue, the owners would roll their eyes and shake their heads. Got told to turn down dozens of times. You think people would learn from that. Nah.
I get all my satisfaction playing at home now. No drunks, no loud volume.
- Chose all material They liked, not what they anticipated a crowd would like.
- They played at ear bleeding volumes.
We chased many crowds away, and basically could never build up anything resembling a following.
Lots of gigs were 3 drunks sitting at the bar, no one else in sight.
Lead guitar couldn't get behind smaller, solid state amps. He rolled a large Marshall stack to every gig. When it was a new venue, the owners would roll their eyes and shake their heads. Got told to turn down dozens of times. You think people would learn from that. Nah.
I get all my satisfaction playing at home now. No drunks, no loud volume.
Mini-rant anecdote. I was in a band that played monthly at a seafood restaurant. Naturally, crowds were bigger in the summer and fall. We'd occasionally get a good showing in the offseason, but smaller turnouts would bother the lead singer. He and the drummer decided that crowds would be twice as large if we only played half as often. The guitarist (who made his living from music) and I said "that math won't work", adding that management liked us and did not care at all about the slow nights, so we should stick with monthly. In fact many of our fans knew that we played there the last Saturday of every month.
Drummer booked the venue, so he and the singer got their way. Long story short, that was the beginning of the end of the band because we never made up those gigs we gave away (despite promises from the lead singer), so the guitarist (musical director of the band) had to go looking for other work to make up that lost income, and his availability dropped.
Also, the restaurant started hiring other bands and apparently liked them also, so we went from every month to every other month to twice a year. I was fully committed to that band, but at that point I went looking for other work, and that was the beginning of the "hired gun" phase of my hobby which continues to this day. Turns out I enjoy that a lot so it worked out OK for me, but I'm still annoyed that the singer and drummer declined those perfectly good gigs simply because their egos weren't always stroked hard enough. It ruined a very good bar band.
P.S. OP I agree that you should work on volume, but my guess is that it all starts with the guitarists who are doing their far-too-customary loud guitar thing, and FOH is just trying to keep up.
I have issue with a lot of comments I've seen so far.
First, people are leaving at breaks - that doesn't indicate a band/volume issue to me. I would think that being too loud would drive them out mid set. I've found that breaks are easy exit points for crowds that aren't necessarily there for the night. They had their dinner/social time, enjoyed the rest of the set and then left when it was convenient. Yes, we all want them to stick around for all of it, but many just aren't there for that. I know when I go out to local shows, I rarely stay for more than a couple hours. I have a couple of beers and maybe some dinner, then leave.
Second, as musicians, we have completely different feelings about what is happening on stage than the audience does - even if we're in the audience. Guitar wankery is an awful thing to us. We've heard it all before and just like Mustang Sally, we're pretty sick of it. That doesn't mean the audience feels the same way. From my perspective, good wankery - especially if it kind of sounds familiar - is idolized. "Wow that guy can play the solo form that favorite song of mine!" Yes, breaking up the wankery with some more vocal feature stuff is good, but people like the "guitar god" mentality - it's why R&R has endured so well. And remember, we're playing to people who get off on the "Bop, ba, ba" of Sweet Caroline.
I'm not saying OP's band doesn't have issues - I don't know, never heard them. I do know that playing in bands that have dead crowds at the end is pretty sad. I've been gigging for about 5 years now and for the later shows (9-1), it was very common for the last set to be played to bar flies and crickets. It seems to be less of an issue for the earlier shows, but it still happens. I played a 6-9 show a month ago that the last set was to the bar staff - period. An hour or two of music is often enough for a lot of people, no matter how good you are. Ever notice that top acts - the ones we spend hundreds of dollars to see - routinely play for 2 hours or less? 4 hours is a long time to hold people's attention or to expect people to hold their energy - especially in this day and age of the "shiny thing of the minute".
For the late shows, to me the answer was always play a long third set - don't give them the out to leave. Most bands won't embrace that, but if you're always starting the next song, they won't have reason to leave. If I was running a band, I'd probably do 3 sets over 4 hours (short and then one long closing set). For three hour shows I'd do two 90 minute sets. If nothing else, it's one less time per night we have to go find the drummer when it's time to go back on.
First, people are leaving at breaks - that doesn't indicate a band/volume issue to me. I would think that being too loud would drive them out mid set. I've found that breaks are easy exit points for crowds that aren't necessarily there for the night. They had their dinner/social time, enjoyed the rest of the set and then left when it was convenient. Yes, we all want them to stick around for all of it, but many just aren't there for that. I know when I go out to local shows, I rarely stay for more than a couple hours. I have a couple of beers and maybe some dinner, then leave.
Second, as musicians, we have completely different feelings about what is happening on stage than the audience does - even if we're in the audience. Guitar wankery is an awful thing to us. We've heard it all before and just like Mustang Sally, we're pretty sick of it. That doesn't mean the audience feels the same way. From my perspective, good wankery - especially if it kind of sounds familiar - is idolized. "Wow that guy can play the solo form that favorite song of mine!" Yes, breaking up the wankery with some more vocal feature stuff is good, but people like the "guitar god" mentality - it's why R&R has endured so well. And remember, we're playing to people who get off on the "Bop, ba, ba" of Sweet Caroline.
I'm not saying OP's band doesn't have issues - I don't know, never heard them. I do know that playing in bands that have dead crowds at the end is pretty sad. I've been gigging for about 5 years now and for the later shows (9-1), it was very common for the last set to be played to bar flies and crickets. It seems to be less of an issue for the earlier shows, but it still happens. I played a 6-9 show a month ago that the last set was to the bar staff - period. An hour or two of music is often enough for a lot of people, no matter how good you are. Ever notice that top acts - the ones we spend hundreds of dollars to see - routinely play for 2 hours or less? 4 hours is a long time to hold people's attention or to expect people to hold their energy - especially in this day and age of the "shiny thing of the minute".
For the late shows, to me the answer was always play a long third set - don't give them the out to leave. Most bands won't embrace that, but if you're always starting the next song, they won't have reason to leave. If I was running a band, I'd probably do 3 sets over 4 hours (short and then one long closing set). For three hour shows I'd do two 90 minute sets. If nothing else, it's one less time per night we have to go find the drummer when it's time to go back on.
Yup
I use to go to listen to music.
In fact the artists I like, if you are not listening, you are missing the show.
You can detect the fundamental shift in mindset by the way people now refer to going to attend a music performance. It used to be “were going to hear bandname.” Now it’s “we’re going to see bandname.” The new generation of musicians has even taken to referring to themselves as “artists” rather than musicians. Which makes sense considering how visual music performance has since become. Modern concerts now have far more in common with musical theater than they do with music performance. The music has now been relegated to an element in a stage production rather than its raison d’etre.
I guess there’s a grain of truth in the old Hollywood showbiz saying that actors secretly want to be singers, and singers secretly want to be actors.
Agree 100%.
There’s been a few times when a band I was in was playing to the crickets and the house staff. We just treated it as a full set dress rehearsal and soldiered on. It’s never wise to quit the stage early unless the venue’s management, on its own initiative, tells you to shut down. I would never once take it upon myself to end a show early irregardless of how dead the room was. It’s just shows bad form IMO.
Agreed. If the venue asks us to stop, we would. We have never had that happen, yet. We HAVE had the venue come to us and tell us we could KEEP playing if we wanted to, though! LOL I think the staff was enjoying the music as they cleaned up and put the tables back to normal, etc. We played a few more songs then stopped and tore down. We must have done well, because they also invited us back.
I’ve left in the middle of bar shows I was enjoying just because it was time to move on. Maybe that’s why you get called back. I often think about the bands feelings as I walk out the door and try to look extra positive if I like them, but it’s a weird thing to do so generally people don’t.
It’s a good sign if they wait til break to leave IMO. For a lot of people in a casual environment 1 set is plenty.
It’s a good sign if they wait til break to leave IMO. For a lot of people in a casual environment 1 set is plenty.
JeezyMcNuggles
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Work out your guitar situation, drop your levels, and change your set list. Or...join another band. Second set, and everybody left...again...not a good sign that you're on the right track.
I’m not sure why you’re preaching this to me. In my first post to the OP I said I’d be out the door in a half hour should any band engage in guitar duels or extended guitar solos. I also said that sort of thing went out with the 70s and I was surprised a venue would even let them get away with doing that today. I didn’t engage in digs about being middle aged. Nor did I toss in a dad band in cargo pants strawman like you have since I have no idea what they look like on stage. But I do think I politely suggested that what they were doing wasn’t only extremely dated, it was also likely to be very annoying from a modern audience perspective.
I’m from the school that believes in extremely short intros, tight arrangements, minimal repetitions, and not using an instrumental solo to cover up the fact you were either too lazy to write an extra verse of lyrics or too creatively challenged to write a moderately clever bridge. I have zero patience for jam bands, sloppy arrangements, or meandering solos. Which is probably why I could never listen to the Grateful Dead for more than five minutes despite my admiration for Phil Lesh as a bassist.
You can detect the fundamental shift in mindset by the way people now refer to going to attend a music performance. It used to be “were going to hear bandname.” Now it’s “we’re going to see bandname.” The new generation of musicians has even taken to referring to themselves as “artists” rather than musicians. Which makes sense considering how visual music performance has since become. Modern concerts now have far more in common with musical theater than they do with music performance. The music has now been relegated to an element in a stage production rather than its raison d’etre.
I guess there’s a grain of truth in the old Hollywood showbiz saying that actors secretly want to be singers, and singers secretly want to be actors.
You really like to blame the audience, don'tcha?
But you have nailed this - music is theatre... It just took a bit of a break during Rock and Roll...;-)
If I look back at history, prior to Rock and Roll, it was always about going to see and be seen. It seems like the whole "We're going to hear someone." came about from the initial weekend warriors that tried to emulate their Claptons, Hendrix', and Pages - that kind of thing - when electric instruments were new.
Prior to that, stage bands has shticks that were either comedic, raconteur-like, or had some kind of uncanny connection to the audience that brought them back. It wasn't just the music - it was the whole package and there was always a visual element. Audience members knew the band leader, or the conductor, or the singer, but everyone else in the band was basically anonymous, and often replaceable.
It's no longer interesting for band members stand up on stage with an electric guitar between their loins pointing it at the dance floor but it just happened to be a 70 year anomaly. It has nothing to do with how much sensory bombardment we get. We are just exiting a 70 year phenomenon, fast.
Mainly your claim that audiences are bombarded with sensory overload and need a show... That was the main thing I had an issue with... I agree with what you said about "tight" arrangements and concise structure.
That's the correct advice but based on what I've read about the OP's band the bolded part ain't gonna happen. You can't teach an old dog new tricks. Those guitarists are set in their ways and if the band keeps getting asked back there's no incentive for them to change.
You angry about something I didn’t say?
I have no idea where you’re getting that from. Audiences know what they want. Musicians can only hope there’s an audience for what they’re playing. IMO, an audience is never wrong. If a musician fails to convince them they want to hear what they’re playing, that’s the musicians problem, not the audience.
