Another IEM question

[s0c9]

Get custom, I’ll say it like I’ve said on any other thread about iem. Is your hearing worth more than $20? I’ve been regularly gigging for 22 years now with no noticeable hearing loss (I know my high frequency hearing is intact).

The fit is everything- less drivers with better fit will be better than multi driver generic fit anyday. My acs custom single driver iem’s sound much better than my old dual driver custom iem’s and I can listen much quieter than anytime I’ve had to use generic, even with foam tips. I hear very clearly with one driver- no need to push iem’s hard, with the right fit they don’t need to be loud, and if you do your own mix or have a reliable monitor engineer then make sure your mix actually helps you, leave parts low or off that are not needed. Stereo helps a lot too if you can swing it because you can create some separation that way.

General statement, not aimed at OP- forego a $300 pedal, extra bass, etc to get good hearing equipment- long after you would have sold that pedal you’ll still have good hearing, which is a sense that is somewhat important to musicians...

+ 1000%
Then there's folks like me who CANNOT use universals, because of small ear canals, so they fall out or lose seal every time I move, open mouth, etc.
I went to customs (1964 Qi's) about 5 yrs ago after an audiologist explained why universals won't work for me. What a difference!!! I've since upgraded to their A8's and wouldn't do without them at a gig.
Like you, I keep the IEM volume REAL low in my ears -- with the 1964 ADEL tech, acts a bit like ambient ports -- so I can HEAR stuff going on around me - like the FOH subs - and still give myself the mix I need to do the job on stage.
People will spend 1,000's on their rig, but only pony up $20 for hearing protection..
Begs the question as to how many gigging bassists move their bass around in gig bags instead of cases ?

 

[EastCoastThump]

w/ all respect, the advice to go custom or go home is useful for musicians who are committed to moving to IEMs and who have the cash to do it big right away, and who don't mind risking $400 and up fo the earphones. For others, it's counter-productive.

If you've never successfully used universal earphones, that's a data point. But you risk over-generalizing from your personal experience. I've used universals at rehearsal, and I've tested them on gigs. There's no reason high performing universals that seal well and fit securely well can't be gigged, and they'll sound better than all but the most professionally sourced and well run wedges. The trick is to find the ones that sound good, in a field in which price doesn't signal performance.

Do the KZ ZS5s I gigged on Saturday sound as good as my reshelled Triple-Fis or the drummer's InEarz Euphorias? No. But they did allow us to get the guitarist, keys player, and lead vocalist—all initially reluctant to get away from amps and wedges—into IEMs. Cleaned up our FOH sound, essentially eliminated the risk of feedback on the vocal mics, brought everyone's monitoring levels way down (and monitor clarity way up), and gave everyone a clean and detailed monitoring mix. I used KZ5s so I could hear a closer approximation of the other players' mixes by switching into their aux feeds. It wasn't a compromise.

To say universals risk *your* hearing (based on your personal difficulties with getting a good seal, etc) may be true in your case. But as a generalization it's misleading, and it may discourage some TBers from trying in-ears. If so, that would be the greater risk to their hearing.

 

[GuiTuber]

It's also not about putting a price tag on one's hearing. That's actually insulting. I can't believe there is anyone who has ever logged into TB that doesn't care about their hearing.

An audiologist will tell you that hearing loss can lead to mental problems, e.g. isolation, irritability, depression, etc. But since insurance doesn't typically cover the cost of hearing aids, does that mean that those who can't afford $2000-$3000 for the cheapest hearing aids don't care about their mental health?

We all do what we can with what we got. Some of us are just more fortunate than others.

 

[mrufino1]

I understand and certainly no offense meant. However, I do stand by what I say, custom fit will be better than universal, no matter how well the universal fits, because you will be able to keep the volume lower. My point was the same as @s0c9 said, which is thousands spent on other aspects of a rig but going very cheap on monitoring. Obviously there are always exceptions to any general statement, and not everyone is blessed with huge incomes or a lot of discretionary spending (and I am most definitely not in either of those categories), but even if it was made a goal of saving for a year to get an entry level pair, there will still be a difference. Mine are single drivers and were $290 including the fitting. I would have liked the triple driver model but budget did not support it and for my gigs I don't even think it would make a huge difference.

So maybe to clarify, if your budget is $20 then it is what it is, but I also see people discussing in many threads buying $300 and up universal fit iem's, and if you're already spending $300, my point is that better fit will outperform more drivers. If your budget is $1000, then by all means get more drivers, but if it's less, my opinion is that it is smarter to go for better fit, it will result in better sound.

I am also a clinical social worker and believe every human has a right to self determination, so I'm not offended if someone does the opposite of something I recommend, I respect individual choice.

However, as a quick example, I play with a drummer who uses universal, not sure of the set but maybe $100, and he tapes them in his ears and constantly complains about not hearing right, but says he doesn't have the budget for customs. Then, we did a gig last week and he elected to stay at the place all weekend at $400 per night, plus dinners, etc... One night shorter trip would have paid for customs that could have provided a few years of happier gigs. But, it is his choice, and I don't speak with him on the subject anymore. I also don't do sound in that band so I'm not getting yelled at when he can't hear!

Finally, I see often people with $600-$1000 wireless iem systems and $20-50 universal iem's at wedding gigs that I play, etc, where they don't even leave the stage - why not great iem's and a headphone cable? But again, not up to me.

Just my thoughts, no need to listen to them if you disagree.

 

[Scottkarch]

It's my guess that the $20-50 KZs are at roughly the same level as Shure 1-2 driver se215s or 315s $100-$200. And REGARDLESS, going wired/wireless etc will be better than loud stages and wedges with or without shared feeds.

I am not trying to say that going with a rolls headphone amp and wired cable into a pair of ZS earbuds has the flexibility or quality as 1964s and a Senhieser wireless system. Im trying to help people save their ears by showing that you can get started for $100-150. And while the more expensive systems are better, you can get started easily this way and upgrade piece by piece as you need it. I'd say go with better IEMs and wired headphones to save lots of money.

I get a great seal with my universals and comply foam tips... I assume most people can. Give it a shot, the 20-50 you spent trying was a calculated risk at saving 300-500 that you can put towards other equipment. If you have the money to spend for more expensive gear.. go for it, you probably have a higher likelyhood of it working. You also may be one of those players who just can not play with IEMs.. you need or want to hear the stage... You're out way more money if it doesnt work out.......

Those KZs are better than any $100-150 earbuds I've ever purchased ( bose, klipsch, sony, beats ).. I think you'd be shocked at the quality of the KZs for the price. I'd recommend not discounting them until you try them. I've seen plenty of complaints about $500 wasted on high end earbuds breaking, multiple repairs etc.

 

[GuiTuber]

I would certainly agree that someone buying bass after bass and then spending $20 on in-ears has their priorities screwed up.

One doesn't have to spend hundreds of dollars on custom-fit earpieces either. There are products on the market that can be molded around off-the-shelf earpieces to create a custom fit without the price. Plenty of videos on YouTube to show you how it's done, too.

 

[Scottkarch]

I would certainly agree that someone buying bass after bass and then spending $20 on in-ears has their priorities screwed up.

I've tried the sugru method a couple times and could never get it to work as well as comply tips. The other DIY mold methods can be time consuming and messy. After two attempts I'll get professional molds made once I stop using universals.

 

[EastCoastThump]

I do stand by what I say, custom fit will be better than universal, no matter how well the universal fits, because you will be able to keep the volume lower.

Custom fit *will* fit and seal better than universals. Beyond that, it's hard to generalize b/c "better" and (especially) "sufficient" depend on a lot of variables.

Will better fit & seal mean the *potential* for better bass response and lower monitoring volumes? Yes. But with the right fit and the right gigging circumstances, will the right pair of universals provide all the bass, clarity, detail, and isolation you need to run at low volumes and hear a great mix? Yes and yes.

Agreed with the spirit of most of the rest of the post, and I appreciate that you and s0c9 are passionate aboute protecting your hearing and evangelizing other TBers to protect theirs. But that's also true of Scottkarch, GuiTuber, and others here bringing you field reports of surprisingly inexpensive universal IEMs that are giggable.

 

[mrufino1]

I would certainly agree that someone buying bass after bass and then spending $20 on in-ears has their priorities screwed up.

One doesn't have to spend hundreds of dollars on custom-fit earpieces either. There are products on the market that can be molded around off-the-shelf earpieces to create a custom fit without the price. Plenty of videos on YouTube to show you how it's done, too.

I've tried this more times than I want to admit, it's nowhere near the same.

Agreed on financial outlay, but once you discover that in ears work for you at $20-50, I still highly recommend moving to custom, the difference is not subtle. As I said, mine were under $300 including fitting. They developed an issue twice that was finally tracked down, but the company took care of my really well and this last time I had them back in less than 4 days so if have them for the next gig, they did overnight shipping both ways at no cost to me. This time they are much more solid and I can now recommend them.

 

[BurningSkies]

50$ IEMs with foam tips are a huge change from my past stage use. No plugs, 3000w amp, loud monitors. They isolate well enough that we can't talk on stage to each other. My ears get WAY less SPL with them. Add to that, that since we're ALL using them on stage the wedges are gone. The guitar amps are turned down or shielded. I don't even need amp volume in the room...so live drummer is it.

I'm advocating for guys who have never tried 'em out. It's huge improvement and way less dangerous to your ears.

 

[s0c9]

50$ IEMs with foam tips are a huge change from my past stage use. No plugs, 3000w amp, loud monitors. They isolate well enough that we can't talk on stage to each other. My ears get WAY less SPL with them. Add to that, that since we're ALL using them on stage the wedges are gone. The guitar amps are turned down or shielded. I don't even need amp volume in the room...so live drummer is it.

I'm advocating for guys who have never tried 'em out. It's huge improvement and way less dangerous to your ears.

I'm no expert, but over the last - I guess it's 8 yrs now - I've run the gamut from loud stages and wedges to my current Senn G3/1964 A8's system.
That include a whole host of "cheap" universals with about every kind of tip on the market (up to about 4 yrs ago) trying to make them "stick" in my ears, and wired (with no limiters) to wired with limiters, to Avioms, Behringer PM's, to various wireless units (PSM200, Carvin EM900, Senn G3) and combinations thereof.
Spent a TON of $$$ getting there.... learnt a LOT !!
4.5 yrs ago an audiologist told me during a hearing test and casual conversation that I had small ear canals and universals would probably never work for me.
After a ton of research I ordered a set of 1964 Qi's (4-driver). OMG !! What a HUGE difference. GREAT BASS, no broken seals.. the ability to get a great MIX in my ears!
2 yrs ago I upgraded to the A8's.. not a HUGE difference but there are subtle changes in the bass delivery.. coupled with the ADEL tech (pressure equalization diaphragms that sort of act like ambient ports) and low IEM volumes I can hear what's going on (like FOH subs) quite well. I'm VERY happy with my current state.

That said.. if you CAN get a good seal with universal buds.. go for it !!
Factor in budget, but get the best MULTIPLE driver buds (preferably TRIPLE or better) you can afford.
Buy once, cry once.

 

[BurningSkies]

I'm no expert, but over the last - I guess it's 8 yrs now - I've run the gamut from loud stages and wedges to my current Senn G3/1964 A8's system.
That include a whole host of "cheap" universals with about every kind of tip on the market (up to about 4 yrs ago) trying to make them "stick" in my ears, and wired (with no limiters) to wired with limiters, to Avioms, Behringer PM's, to various wireless units (PSM200, Carvin EM900, Senn G3) and combinations thereof.
Spent a TON of $$$ getting there.... learnt a LOT !!
4.5 yrs ago an audiologist told me during a hearing test and casual conversation that I had small ear canals and universals would probably never work for me.
After a ton of research I ordered a set of 1964 Qi's (4-driver). OMG !! What a HUGE difference. GREAT BASS, no broken seals.. the ability to get a great MIX in my ears!
2 yrs ago I upgraded to the A8's.. not a HUGE difference but there are subtle changes in the bass delivery.. coupled with the ADEL tech (pressure equalization diaphragms that sort of act like ambient ports) and low IEM volumes I can hear what's going on (like FOH subs) quite well. I'm VERY happy with my current state.

That said.. if you CAN get a good seal with universal buds.. go for it !!
Factor in budget, but get the best MULTIPLE driver buds (preferably TRIPLE or better) you can afford.
Buy once, cry once.

I don't disagree...but you also have a very specific thing...small earholes. There are lots of people out there who may not have that issue. Once I moved from the silicon tips to foam, I never have had seals break with jaw movement (including yawns) and I haven't had any problems with them falling out.

On an entry level, which is where most people start with IEMs to test the waters, you're really looking at whether a 20-50$ unit out performs a 100$ unit like the Shure SE215 or a 200$ SE315, AT EP3's, Westone Am Pro 10s, etc.

In a perfect world I don't think there's anyone who wouldn't choose a custom fit 8-driver $1400 IEM over anything that's sub 500$ 1,2 or 4 driver IEM.

 

[s0c9]

In a perfect world I don't think there's anyone who wouldn't choose a custom fit 8-driver $1400 IEM over anything that's sub 500$ 1,2 or 4 driver IEM.

Totally agree.. which is why .. at the end of my post, I stated "if you CAN get a good seal with universal buds.. go for it !!
Factor in budget, but get the best MULTIPLE driver buds (preferably TRIPLE or better) you can afford."

FWIW -, yes! My budget - some 400 paid gigs over the last 5 yrs - supported the system I have.

 

[mrufino1]

Agreed that the $20 or $50 buds probably perform just as well as the $100 sets (and quite possibly the universal sets that are quite a bit more). And I am also someone with very small ear canals so no universal has worked for me, even with very small foam tips.

It seems to be agreed that custom will outperform universal, however I do understand that the needs of some will be served by universal fit and I'm not out to disparage anyone.

My only point then turns out to be that if someone is going to buy very expensive universal, I recommend fewer drivers and custom since the costs are going to be equal. If budget supports well made higher driver count customs, then I don't think many people would be disappointed with them. It may take a few gigs to get used to in ears (it didn't for me, the adjustment was quick and happy) but I do think it's worth it to hear more clearly now and preserve it for longer.

 

[BurningSkies]

Agreed that the $20 or $50 buds probably perform just as well as the $100 sets (and quite possibly the universal sets that are quite a bit more). And I am also someone with very small ear canals so no universal has worked for me, even with very small foam tips.

It seems to be agreed that custom will outperform universal, however I do understand that the needs of some will be served by universal fit and I'm not out to disparage anyone.

My only point then turns out to be that if someone is going to buy very expensive universal, I recommend fewer drivers and custom since the costs are going to be equal. If budget supports well made higher driver count customs, then I don't think many people would be disappointed with them. It may take a few gigs to get used to in ears (it didn't for me, the adjustment was quick and happy) but I do think it's worth it to hear more clearly now and preserve it for longer.

I really expected the transition to be longer and more painful. We went from full floor monitors to IEM with a single band rehearsal in between. It sounds different certainly, and I sometimes feel like I can't quite get the 'vibe' in the room as much (we're adding a stage mic to see if that helps). but If you've recorded more than once or twice in a 'live band' situation in the studio, it isn't much different besides hearing a bit of FOH bleed that you don't in the studio.

 

[GuiTuber]

I was good the first gig.

We never had a very good monitoring set up to begin with. Our gigs were rather small to begin with so without wedges, I would just hear what was coming out of the mains, even though they were in front of me. For myself, my amp is always behind me so I don't have a problem hearing myself. And I'm always next to our percussionist so I always hear him as well. I heard enough that I never had a timing problem or anything like that.

Having the IEM's made everything crystal clear. I hear everything, where I didn't before.

We're a small acoustic-oriented band. The band leader and the other guitarist (before he left) used a cheap wireless deal where they had one earphone so they got to hear themselves, as they are the main singers. When we tried to use wedges, we always had feedback issues because of how we mic the percussionist, i.e. condenser pencil mics, which picked up a lot of background noise (hey, we do with what we have). Most of the time, we went without the wedges. A lot of times it was because we didn't have the stage space.

The band leader picked up a decent IEM system on Amazon and the rest of us got our own monitors. The percussionist has been the most persnickety. He doesn't like the "talking in a cave" sound when he has his ears plugged.

 

[s0c9]

Having the IEM's made everything crystal clear. I hear everything, where I didn't before.

This is absolutely the UPSIDE to an IEM mix.. It's also the DOWNSIDE.. you hear EVERYTHING crystal clear.. including screwups.. missed harmonis and wrong notes.. LOL

 

[GuiTuber]

That's true. The band leader and I are always trading funny looks when we hear something off.

 

[BurningSkies]

This is absolutely the UPSIDE to an IEM mix.. It's also the DOWNSIDE.. you hear EVERYTHING crystal clear.. including screwups.. missed harmonis and wrong notes.. LOL

I peeked at everyone elses' mixes. Given the bass level in a few (our singers have themselves cranked and everything else way back)...I'm guessing I can keep making as many mistakes as I want.

 

[Scottkarch]

I peeked at everyone elses' mixes. Given the bass level in a few (our singers have themselves cranked and everything else way back)...I'm guessing I can keep making as many mistakes as I want.

HA! Too True! We practice on Sunday or Monday, I'll grab a screen capture of the 4 monitor mixes to compare and show off the levels.

Another thing we tried last gig was a talkback mic. It's always been hard for our sound guy ( friend that owns the PA speakers and runs faders for us ) to communicate with us. We have an unused wireless mic. He mutes the mic through the FOH but we have it in our ears.. he can comment to us... give us song change ideas etc while we are playing without the audience hearing. I love it. As long as he doesn't get chatty, it's great and helped out a couple times last show.