ANOTHER NEWB QUESTION WITH NO RIGHT ANSWER

[53Rockets]

Hey all, I'm back again with another newb question that doesn't have a right answer but might point me in the right direction for my first 'big boy' amp purchase as a bass player. Origin story- former guitar player, always lived in an apartment, didn't understand watts and tubes, bought many amplifiers based on youtube videos with ungodly amounts of power that didn't translate to anything reasonably usable as far as tone, realized 5 watts is still 'effin loud...gets older, wisens up, falls in love with bass, still loves tubes and youtube but won't get fooled again, still lies to himself about not getting fooled again..

So I'm currently a home player, but wants an amp I can get a decent tone with at home for practice and general mental health, but is fully usable in a band setting, which is my ultimate goal. I'm still a fan of tubes, have a solid pedalboard and understand signal chain, but appreciate the reliability and portability that solid state have to offer.

Thanks for sticking with me so far. My question, and where I'd like some guidance from the experience this site provides, is this.

My dream 'tone' is an Ampeg V4B, likely a reissue via my local L&M in Canada. Probably with an accompanying 212. I know in an apartment this would level the foundation of the building, but at a low volume does it sound like an Ampeg? I have a pedalboard including an SGT-DI for some grit etc..but I know this amp would work for any band or venue I'll ever play in.

My other line of thinking is the SVT 3-PRO. Bit of tube, bit of solid state, maybe of bit of reality? Again, I'd like some tube warmth at a low volume but the ability to use the same rig with an everyday type bar band. I don't have unlimited funds so I'd like to invest in a set up which would give me the best of both worlds (pedalboard to fill in gaps). If there's a 'best cab' for an SVT 3 I'd love to hear it. I've read many posts about the SVT 3 being underpowered, but I can't see a reality I'd find myself in where it wouldn't have enough guts for me.

I currently have a Venture V3 SVT-210AV but just picked up the SGT-DI for the pedalboard and quiet home practice so will be selling the V3 to help fund the big boy amp. Amp sounds great, no regrets, but I want something different.

Sorry for the long post but I want to give the most accurate details because I know there are people on here that have had all the stuff and can probably relate in some way to where I'm at in this journey....

 

[Roland GR 88]

The Ampeg PF-50T is a good option for a tube fan and paired with an efficient 2x12 would work in a band setting at reasonable volumes.
The Traynor YBA 100 is another all tube mid powered head and has 200w and 300w bigger brothers.
Aguilar’s TH series are popular around here and do a very good tube emulation with lots of warmth and power. You will likely get lots of Mesa recommendations for good reason as well. I would search the Aguilar and Mesa threads here. You’ll learn a lot.
Please excuse the first reply. Sure, caps aren’t necessary but neither are rude comments.

 

[53Rockets]

The Ampeg PF-50T is a good option for a tube fan and paired with an efficient 2x12 would work in a band setting at reasonable volumes.
The Traynor YBA 100 is another all tube mid powered head and has 200w and 300w bigger brothers.
Aguilar’s TH series are popular around here and do a very good tube emulation with lots of warmth and power. You will likely get lots of Mesa recommendations for good reason as well. I would search the Aguilar and Mesa threads here. You’ll learn a lot.
Please excuse the first reply. Sure, caps aren’t necessary but neither are rude comments.

Much appreciated all around. I originally was looking into the PF-50T, and saw several posts with people saying even the V4B wouldn't cut it live. I realize stage size, band volume, foh, etc. factor in. I should definitely check out the Traynor line. They make some great and underappreciated amps.

Glad I didn't use an exclamation mark and get charged with assault.

 

[HolmeBass]

One thing to consider is for real tune aficionados, the magic happens in the power tubes, not the preamp ones. So that SVT3 is not going to sound like a pushed V4B.

In the other hand, I personally find the tube hype to be entirely over rated. I play a Mesa D-800+ and it sounds amazing.

The more efficient your speaker cabinet is, the further each watt will go. Consider the cabinet as more important than the amp.

The ToneHammer rec is a good one. It definitely mimics tune amps fairly well. But with your Ampeg pedal, maybe you really want something more transparent to let that emulator shine.

 

[JonathanPDX]

There are so many ways to get tube overdrive tone without an actual tube amp, it seems like a huge barrier for basically zero gain beyond clout with other bass players who are impressed that you hauled such a big, dumb rig all the way across town. If you're playing at home or even bar-level volume you are never going to get the same effect as thousands of watts cranked up to 11 in a stadium in 1978. You may as well get an emulator, DI, or just a really solid pedal like a Darkglass that gives you the effect even at reasonable volume levels. If you REALLY want to say you have actual tube tone you can even run a pedal with an actual tube in it.

Without that requirement there are tons of options, the only right answer is the amplifier that feels good to you.

As for cabinets, modular setups are all the rage these days, and for good reason. A single 1x12 cabinet gives you more than enough to play at home or even in small venues, and adding a second 1x12 for larger rooms lets you use the exact same rig in different settings without needing to change anything. It's also much easier to haul a couple of 1x12 cabinets around than a single 2x12 beast.

Personally, I'm a big fan of Markbass and they have tone controls that can help you get more of the vintage tone if that's what you're after. But, of course, everyone has their favorite, and only you know what sounds good to your ear, with your bass in your hands.

 

[53Rockets]

There are so many ways to get tube overdrive tone without an actual tube amp, it seems like a huge barrier for basically zero gain beyond clout with other bass players who are impressed that you hauled such a big, dumb rig all the way across town. If you're playing at home or even bar-level volume you are never going to get the same effect as thousands of watts cranked up to 11 in a stadium in 1978. You may as well get an emulator, DI, or just a really solid pedal like a Darkglass that gives you the effect even at reasonable volume levels. If you REALLY want to say you have actual tube tone you can even run a pedal with an actual tube in it.

Without that requirement there are tons of options, the only right answer is the amplifier that feels good to you.

As for cabinets, modular setups are all the rage these days, and for good reason. A single 1x12 cabinet gives you more than enough to play at home or even in small venues, and adding a second 1x12 for larger rooms lets you use the exact same rig in different settings without needing to change anything. It's also much easier to haul a couple of 1x12 cabinets around than a single 2x12 beast.

Personally, I'm a big fan of Markbass and they have tone controls that can help you get more of the vintage tone if that's what you're after. But, of course, everyone has their favorite, and only you know what sounds good to your ear, with your bass in your hands.

All valid suggestions. I think I'm just looking for some sort of hack that will get me closest to the 'tube tone' for both home and occasional gigs. Getting one or the other is fairly easy. I really like the idea of a pedal with a tube in it. I've never actually played one, so that might be fun thing to look into.

 

[backin82]

Much appreciated all around. I originally was looking into the PF-50T, and saw several posts with people saying even the V4B wouldn't cut it live. I realize stage size, band volume, foh, etc. factor in. I should definitely check out the Traynor line. They make some great and underappreciated amps.

Glad I didn't use an exclamation mark and get charged with assault.

I SHOULDN'T EVEN BE RESPONDING TO YOU AFTER YOUR EGREGIOUS THREAD TITLE, BUT I DIGRESS.

The PF-50T and V4B are both Ampeggy sounding amps, and I used a V4B with a couple of 212AVs in a live setting without much issue. I had to crank it a little bit, but it was able to do the job. Something you'll gather about bass amplification (if you haven't already) is that volume levels are more tied to how much air you can move, and not how many watts are pushing the speakers. More speaker volume/area/air movement typically yields louder sound. You could move a lot of air with a V4 with the right speaker situation.

I'd recommend focusing first on getting a good bedroom tone now, and worry less about the hypothetical, future band situation. Your needs may vary wildly from one group or style to another, so just get something that works for your current needs, and have fun with that. You'll need time to work on tonal preferences, etc...and that will allow you to enjoy that season of work at home. I'd say go with a PF-50T now, and pair that with a 210 or 212. You can add another matching speaker cabinet later when/if needed.

 

[53Rockets]

I SHOULDN'T EVEN BE RESPONDING TO YOU AFTER YOUR EGREGIOUS THREAD TITLE, BUT I DIGRESS.

The PF-50T and V4B are both Ampeggy sounding amps, and I used a V4B with a couple of 212AVs in a live setting without much issue. I had to crank it a little bit, but it was able to do the job. Something you'll gather about bass amplification (if you haven't already) is that volume levels are more tied to how much air you can move, and not how many watts are pushing the speakers. More speaker volume/area/air movement typically yields louder sound. You could move a lot of air with a V4 with the right speaker situation.

I'd recommend focusing first on getting a good bedroom tone now, and worry less about the hypothetical, future band situation. Your needs may vary wildly from one group or style to another, so just get something that works for your current needs, and have fun with that. You'll need time to work on tonal preferences, etc...and that will allow you to enjoy that season of work at home. I'd say go with a PF-50T now, and pair that with a 210 or 212. You can add another matching speaker cabinet later when/if needed.

THANK YOu....just kidding..
Thanks for pointing me in the direction of reality vs. a future hypothetical. Bass has become a bit of an obsession and it's easy for me to confuse excitement with necessity. I'll focus on a good tone for what I actually need and not worry about gear for a band that I'm not in, and might never be in. When I was first looking for an Ampeg amp I was really drawn to the PF-50T, then went down the rabbit hole of options and hypotheticals.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Hey all, I'm back again with another newb question that doesn't have a right answer but might point me in the right direction for my first 'big boy' amp purchase as a bass player. Origin story- former guitar player, always lived in an apartment, didn't understand watts and tubes, bought many amplifiers based on youtube videos with ungodly amounts of power that didn't translate to anything reasonably usable as far as tone, realized 5 watts is still 'effin loud...gets older, wisens up, falls in love with bass, still loves tubes and youtube but won't get fooled again, still lies to himself about not getting fooled again..

So I'm currently a home player, but wants an amp I can get a decent tone with at home for practice and general mental health, but is fully usable in a band setting, which is my ultimate goal. I'm still a fan of tubes, have a solid pedalboard and understand signal chain, but appreciate the reliability and portability that solid state have to offer.

Thanks for sticking with me so far. My question, and where I'd like some guidance from the experience this site provides, is this.

My dream 'tone' is an Ampeg V4B, likely a reissue via my local L&M in Canada. Probably with an accompanying 212. I know in an apartment this would level the foundation of the building, but at a low volume does it sound like an Ampeg? I have a pedalboard including an SGT-DI for some grit etc..but I know this amp would work for any band or venue I'll ever play in.

My other line of thinking is the SVT 3-PRO. Bit of tube, bit of solid state, maybe of bit of reality? Again, I'd like some tube warmth at a low volume but the ability to use the same rig with an everyday type bar band. I don't have unlimited funds so I'd like to invest in a set up which would give me the best of both worlds (pedalboard to fill in gaps). If there's a 'best cab' for an SVT 3 I'd love to hear it. I've read many posts about the SVT 3 being underpowered, but I can't see a reality I'd find myself in where it wouldn't have enough guts for me.

I currently have a Venture V3 SVT-210AV but just picked up the SGT-DI for the pedalboard and quiet home practice so will be selling the V3 to help fund the big boy amp. Amp sounds great, no regrets, but I want something different.

Sorry for the long post but I want to give the most accurate details because I know there are people on here that have had all the stuff and can probably relate in some way to where I'm at in this journey....

First off, welcome to the board.

This suggestion is not going to hit all your qualifications, but I think it is a very practicals solution for apartment dwellers.

The main problem with low frequencies is they tend to penetrate walls and halls, and depending on the construction of the building could be difficult to contain within your apartment at the sound level to (ahem) “feel the air”. A 100 watt V4B powering 2-12s as good as it will sound to you, might not sound so good to your neighbors.

I do a fair amount of good online recording and am quite comfortable using head phones/earbuds. A while back I had to live in apartment for 6 months. At the time I was gigging and recording quite often and had to learn more songs without rehearsing live.

My son gave me a discontinued Digitech BR355 effects pedal about 10 years ago. It is fantastic with effects a few amp and cab models to choose from. It also has mixable media inputs so instead of just listing to yourself play, you can play with whatever you want out of your smart phone. It can be used as a DI, computer interface, and just sounds great with a good set of head phones and or earbuds buds. The only thing sound wise in your apartment is the sound of clacking strings.

Option two, Can’t stand headphones? One other idea is this will interface with powered speaker, like the mini blue tooth ones you use in apartment dwelling for playing home music for instance.

As I said, my Digitech is way behind the current technology so there are a lot more options with much better effects, and more choices of simulators. There are more choice in manufactures, and of course pricing. I’m thinking you could put together a suitable rig like this for under $500, including the effects unit and a good set of head phones/ earbuds/powered speaker.

Anyway, best wishes on your search. I hope you find this information useful.

 

[stevensivak]

This notion that "tube goodness" is produced by the power amp ALONE (my bad) is a myth that many people, even some prominent/well respected amp/pedal designers keep repeating.
I recently bought an Ampeg SVP pre-amp... 5 tubes in the thing! It has a gain and drive controls and the thing produces all of the over drive of my Gensler 4 on the floor pedal. Seriously, you can crank those two stages way up until the tone almost falls apart! And most importantly, it can do that at low volume levels....

In addition, starting a long time ago with a SWR Redhead, which had one of "those" tubes in the pre section, I have NOT (my bad) found that the mere presence of A (my bad) single tube will necessarily produce anything resembling a tube rig.
Since rack mounted gear is unpopular these days, it is doubtful that most bass players have experienced this... Or perhaps it is due to the fact that the SVP has sonic capabilities that other pre-amps just do not have.....

 

[bherman]

Welcome to the Bass side. As others alluded to, you can forget about tubes when it comes to tone you’re seeking for with Bass. I’ll give you an example from the guitar world which should probably be more familiar with. I played a gig on Saturday With guitar player who has always been heavily into tube amp works. He recently bought one of those fender twins that are all digital that have modeling built-in, and sounded fantastic and weighs about a quarter of what his old twin did.

 

[BassicJazzy]

I'm not going to get into the tube vs solid state thing, but can weigh in on choice of amp for apartment playing. I can also say that modern solid state amps can sound pretty much like a more vintage hybrid with tube pre-amp section, having migrated recently. from an SWR Baby Blue 2 hybrid toe a Rumble100. For apartment playing, I suggest you not go larger than a Rumble100, or any amp with more than a 12" speaker. Wattage is irrelevant, you can turn the amp down, but anything larger than 12" will penetrate walls and floors at even minimal volume. The BB2 had 2x8" plus a 5" tweeter ask it sounded fine, worked in apartment, but was heavy and relatively expensive. If you need something larger than 1x12 for playing in band setup, get a second amp for that purpose, or use the DI. Personally, I cannot stand playing bass through headphones, my body wants to feel the bass for feedback.

 

[klokker]

Keep in mind a basic counterintuitive truth about bass. The tone you like at home probably won't work the best in a band situation. If you're thinking that you can find a great bedroom tone and then simply "turn it up" in a band, you're probably headed for disillusionment. We've all been through this. The tone I gig with isn't my favorite bass tone at all. But it sounds good in the mix.

In your situation, why not get something that gives you a wide variety of different tones to experiment with? I guess I'm not much of a "tone chaser" and we're all different, but in the end you want to be able to find the tone that works if you are playing live.

The way I'm thinking about this: apartment practice rig and gig rig. Two quite different animals.

 

[backin82]

Keep in mind a basic counterintuitive truth about bass. The tone you like at home probably won't work the best in a band situation. If you're thinking that you can find a great bedroom tone and then simply "turn it up" in a band, you're probably headed for disillusionment. We've all been through this. The tone I gig with isn't my favorite bass tone at all. But it sounds good in the mix.

In your situation, why not get something that gives you a wide variety of different tones to experiment with? I guess I'm not much of a "tone chaser" and we're all different, but in the end you want to be able to find the tone that works if you are playing live.

The way I'm thinking about this: apartment practice rig and gig rig. Two quite different animals.

I get what you're saying, and 100% agree that bedroom tone and live gig tone are different things that don't always translate easily. But I'll push back on the notion that you need different amplification systems to meet that challenge. You might have to change settings in each situation, but you don't need completely different amps. I have a GK MB212 combo that I get a great bedroom tone by simply running the "Contour" button to create a more scooped sound, and disengaging that for gigs, which gives much more mid presence. One box, one rig, and I get any tone that I want (within the capabilities of the amp).

The PF-50T, for example, has a lot of preamp functions (like all amps) that can be used effectively to get results in a variety of settings and get really different sounds (albeit Ampeg sounds). It just requires a few more tweaks than just turning up the master volume or gain.

 

[HolmeBass]

This notion that "tube goodness" is produced by the power amp ALONE (my bad) is a myth that many people, even some prominent/well respected amp/pedal designers keep repeating.
I recently bought an Ampeg SVP pre-amp... 5 tubes in the thing! It has a gain and drive controls and the thing produces all of the over drive of my Gensler 4 on the floor pedal. Seriously, you can crank those two stages way up until the tone almost falls apart! And most importantly, it can do that at low volume levels....

In addition, starting a long time ago with a SWR Redhead, which had one of "those" tubes in the pre section, I have NOT (my bad) found that the mere presence of A (my bad) single tube will necessarily produce anything resembling a tube rig.
Since rack mounted gear is unpopular these days, it is doubtful that most bass players have experienced this... Or perhaps it is due to the fact that the SVP has sonic capabilities that other pre-amps just do not have.....

Pre-amp gives you the distortion, but not the power supply sag or note bloom that driving the power tubes hard produces - at least in some designs.

You should also note that I suggested getting a clean setup to let his Ampeg pre-amp pedal handle the grit. But it will not be exactly the same as a driven V4B would be. It will do its thing at much lower volumes.

 

[aero58]

….I originally was looking into the PF-50T….

I have the Ampeg PF-50T, with the PF-210HE cab. I bought it with the same thought that I was going to be playing out as well as at home. Well, so far, it’s been just at home in my house (which is fun, don’t get me wrong!) It sounds amazing and is great at low volume, but honestly it’s overkill for my needs at the house. Even when the wife and kiddo are gone, and I can really crank it, I don’t because it’ll blow my ears out!

 

[stevensivak]

I know this might be difficult, but can you describe: "sag and bloom?"

 

[HolmeBass]

I get what you're saying, and 100% agree that bedroom tone and live gig tone are different things that don't always translate easily. But I'll push back on the notion that you need different amplification systems to meet that challenge. You might have to change settings in each situation, but you don't need completely different amps. I have a GK MB212 combo that I get a great bedroom tone by simply running the "Contour" button to create a more scooped sound, and disengaging that for gigs, which gives much more mid presence. One box, one rig, and I get any tone that I want (within the capabilities of the amp).

The PF-50T, for example, has a lot of preamp functions (like all amps) that can be used effectively to get results in a variety of settings and get really different sounds (albeit Ampeg sounds). It just requires a few more tweaks than just turning up the master volume or gain.

The contour control, known by many names on many different amps, works like the Loudness control on many stereos.

At low volumes it compensates for perceived loss of lows and highs due to the Fletcher-Munson effect by scooping the mids and/or boosting the lows and highs.

The way you are using makes perfect sense to me.

 

[HolmeBass]

I know this might be difficult, but can you describe: "sag and bloom?"

Yeah, difficult to describe, but on some amps with a tube power section, the power supply is governed by another small tube. When you are pushing the amp that tube in the power supply itself saturates and starves the power tubes just a little bit.

This causes a bit more edge to beginning of notes, but also a little less volume. As the note’s envelope decays, the amplitude - the volume - drops a little, the power section catches up, and there is an apparent bloom as the note loses a bit of crunchiness and fills out in frequencies - the bloom.

It is not unlike a compressor grabbing the leading edge of a note and then opening up as the note’s envelope decays. This natural compression is a big part of the “magic” of a tube amp. I will say it is satisfying. But also a lot of modern class D amps have limiting built into the output section that somewhat - but not exactly - reproduces this feel.

But it’s by far close enough for me! In fact I think I prefer the slightly snappier, not as saggy response. But when I run my Mesa or old Genz Benz amps really loud there is a bit of “give” at the beginning of the notes, followed by a slight bloom.

Also some bass tube amps are designed to try to stay a lot cleaner and do not do this very readily. But it is a part of the Ampeg tube amp sound/feel.

I also borrowed an old Aguilar tube amp, it was not very high wattage, so I had to run it really loud at a loud gig, I ran it super hot. It sounded really good, super spongy, not that loud, but it hung in there, I could hear myself. But it was really extremely distorted. In a weird way you could only hear the distortion when the bass was soloed.

 

[BassicJazzy]

The contour control, known by many names on many different amps, works like the Loudness control on many stereos.

At low volumes it compensates for perceived loss of lows and highs due to the Fletcher-Munson effect by scooping the mids and/or boosting the lows and highs.

The way you are using makes perfect sense to me.

Yeah, I agree with this idea too, and the suggestion of amp. It's more money but the GK has the headroom needed to get loud enough for a band situation, plus can be turned down enough for bedroom practice. I will note however that I cannot use either the contour or the vintage settings on my Rumble100 in apartment and keep the bass from penetrating walls and floors. I do better by turning down the low bass in the EQ and then adjusting volume on whichever bass I am using so it is just loud enough to be properly heard in the bedroom. If my wife can hear it or feel it in the adjacent room, it is too loud. Also, I try to only play during middle of the day, most people in adjacent apartments aren't home.

Or, you could just crank it up and move every 6 months, which is how long it takes to evict someone here in L.A.?