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Another Ohms and Watts Question

I'm pretty sure my school taught me volts x amps = watts...and ohms is resistance of the load...not sure how all that works...all I know is when I plug my amp into a speaker...and my bass into the amp...it makes sound...the point here is:...why mod your cabs?...when another amp...either adding one or upgrading to another...will probably produce the best overall result?...no brainer for me...
 
Resistance is a Direct CURRENT measurement, impedance is an Alternating CURRENT measurement. You seeing a pattern here? If you "plug" a 100 watt light bulb into a circuit that has NO current capability there will be NO light and no "100 watt" power consumption for light production or waste heat.
Amplifiers are rated in watt output, "x" amount of volts and "x" amount of sustainable current into the specified load impedance (not resistance as there should be no DC at the amp's output.
lots of electrical/electronic parts are measured in dc resistance. audio amplifires produce AC current. if an amp malfunctions and produces DC current you will end up with a blown speaker. Crown DC 150/300 amps are bad about going into DC current mode and blowing speakers. i'm trying to keep things simple here so people can get a basic understanding. if you go back and re-read my post above you will see that i said volts is current(pressure) , amps is current flow and watts is power used. i never said an amp does not produce power i said an amp does not put out or produce watts because watts is the measurement of power used(dissapated). if you look at the specs of a bare loudspeaker the impedance is listed as OHMS. that is not the same measurement as the DC resistance of the voice coil that can be measured with an VOM meter. impedance is measured using a scope or other equipment with an AC signal applied. OHMS are used as the term for speaker impedance and impedance is the word used for the guitar, mic, phono cartridge, etc for the input resistance. you cannot measure the ohms of a speaker with an ohm meter, you can only measure DC resistance of the voice coil and thats important when building passive crossovers that go between the speaker terminals of the amp and the speaker. i msuggest taking a basic electrical/electronic course to learn ohms law for a better understanding.
 
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Ohms is used as measurement for both resistance and impedance.
My point here is amplifiers are rated for the watts they can produce to a load, just like a power plant (since you are an electrician) is rated for their maximum output in megawatts or kilowatts for self generation from renewable sources. An amp that has a maximum output say 34 vac into a 4 ohm load would mean absolutely nothing if it can not support the current (amperes) for the designed dissipation in watts (volts x amps) to the rated load.
 
Ohms is used as measurement for both resistance and impedance.
My point here is amplifiers are rated for the watts they can produce to a load, just like a power plant (since you are an electrician) is rated for their maximum output in megawatts or kilowatts for self generation from renewable sources. An amp that has a maximum output say 34 vac into a 4 ohm load would mean absolutely nothing if it can not support the current (amperes) for the designed dissipation in watts (volts x amps) to the rated load.
i was trying to keep the explanation simple. another way of saying it is > an amp that is rated at 100 watts at 8 ohms can supply 100% percent of the power needed for an 8 ohm speaker thats rated at 100 watts maxium power to operate at its maxium power rating. an amp thats rated at 50 watts at 8 ohms can only supply enough power for an 8 ohm speaker thats rated at 100 watts maxium power to operate at 50% of it maxium power rating. an amp thats rated at 200 watts at 8 ohms can supply double the power to operate an 8 ohm speaker thats rated at 100 watts maxium power and has the "potential" to destroy the speaker if more power than 100 watts is applied. with a tube amp you get the same power output no matter what the speaker ohm load is. with a transistor amp you get more power from the amp as the the speaker ohms goes down. the transistor amp will produce more power with a 2 ohm load then it will with a 16 ohm load due to the impedance(resistance). from what i learned long ago watts were use instead of voltage to describe an amps power rating due to how tube and transistor amps produce power vs speaker impedance. watts is also a larger number than volts and looks more impressive.
 
You still need a lot more training in audio electronics. While the adopted "standards" are not ideal they are the best compromise for consumers to use as a yardstick. Your example above does not take into account the mathematical "rms" thrown into the "power" rating of amplifiers and the mostly optimistic "power" ratings of speakers. You can find many references in the stickies if you truly want some reading material.
We are not even touching on the duty cycle of the expected "normal" signal to be amplified versus testing conditions. This is all a dynamic signal not a fixed dissipation load.
I for one am not going to hold electronics 101 here in this thread. You made a statement earlier that was in need of some clarity.

Are you aware of SS amp designs that actually derate at 2 ohms for power supply limitation and heat dissipation reasons?
 
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lots of electrical/electronic parts are measured in dc resistance. audio amplifires produce AC current. if an amp malfunctions and produces DC current you will end up with a blown speaker. Crown DC 150/300 amps are bad about going into DC current mode and blowing speakers. i'm trying to keep things simple here so people can get a basic understanding. if you go back and re-read my post above you will see that i said volts is current(pressure) , amps is current flow and watts is power used. i never said an amp does not produce power i said an amp does not put out or produce watts because watts is the measurement of power used(dissapated). if you look at the specs of a bare loudspeaker the impedance is listed as OHMS. that is not the same measurement as the DC resistance of the voice coil that can be measured with an VOM meter. impedance is measured using a scope or other equipment with an AC signal applied. OHMS are used as the term for speaker impedance and impedance is the word used for the guitar, mic, phono cartridge, etc for the input resistance. you cannot measure the ohms of a speaker with an ohm meter, you can only measure DC resistance of the voice coil and thats important when building passive crossovers that go between the speaker terminals of the amp and the speaker. i msuggest taking a basic electrical/electronic course to learn ohms law for a better understanding.
Back to school for you. Volts is not current, it's the electromotive force or difference in potential. So an amp produces power but it does not produce watts? Are you not aware that watts = power? As far as me taking a basic electronics course, it might interest you to know that I taught electronics in the Marines - radio repair generally and radio direction finders specifically, with RF, IF, audio and video circuits. So trust me, I know the difference between impedance and resistance. I also know that voltage is not current and current is not pressure. Seriously, you're in over your head. I mean that in the most loving way possible.
 
Borrowing from Thors post earlier:
"So as an example, if the power available is 300 watts and the impedance is 4 ohms, then the current is 8.66 amps. Theoretically, if we increased R to 8, then 6.1 Amps would be the draw. But we can't ignore the voltage drop and the designer tells us that P = 180 , using the equation we find that the current is now 4.7 Amps at 38 Volts as opposed to 8.66 amps at 34 volts."

Don't you agree that listing amps by voltage output would make the amp appear to provide more "power" at a higher resistance when the opposite is true?
 
Back to school for you. Volts is not current, it's the electromotive force or difference in potential. So an amp produces power but it does not produce watts? Are you not aware that watts = power? As far as me taking a basic electronics course, it might interest you to know that I taught electronics in the Marines - radio repair generally and radio direction finders specifically, with RF, IF, audio and video circuits. So trust me, I know the difference between impedance and resistance. I also know that voltage is not current and current is not pressure. Seriously, you're in over your head. I mean that in the most loving way possible.

+1
 
Irrespective of all the talk about electrical calculations, don't forget to consider that a speaker system isn't a constant impedance. A typical 8 ohm speaker system's impedance varies from ~ 3 ohms to ~30 ohms depending on frequency.
 
Borrowing from Thors post earlier:
"So as an example, if the power available is 300 watts and the impedance is 4 ohms, then the current is 8.66 amps. Theoretically, if we increased R to 8, then 6.1 Amps would be the draw. But we can't ignore the voltage drop and the designer tells us that P = 180 , using the equation we find that the current is now 4.7 Amps at 38 Volts as opposed to 8.66 amps at 34 volts."

Don't you agree that listing amps by voltage output would make the amp appear to provide more "power" at a higher resistance when the opposite is true?
Dunno, but some PA amps are rated by voltage, e.g. 70 volts or 100 volts (output voltage, not supply voltage).
 
Dunno, but some PA amps are rated by voltage, e.g. 70 volts or 100 volts (output voltage, not supply voltage).

Yes those are for long line systems with a large number of "speakers". Like background music/paging systems. Each "speaker" has a step-down transformer for the 70 volt or 100 volt line to the driver's impedance in the cabinet/box/enclosure. Solves the problem of overloading the amps output and signal losses. Frequency response becomes the limits of not only the speaker but the quality of the transformer at each speaker.

[edit] Even though the 70 or 100 volt tap is used the amp can be capable of 5 to 100 watts (or more).
 
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Borrowing from Thors post earlier:
"So as an example, if the power available is 300 watts and the impedance is 4 ohms, then the current is 8.66 amps. Theoretically, if we increased R to 8, then 6.1 Amps would be the draw. But we can't ignore the voltage drop and the designer tells us that P = 180 , using the equation we find that the current is now 4.7 Amps at 38 Volts as opposed to 8.66 amps at 34 volts."

Don't you agree that listing amps by voltage output would make the amp appear to provide more "power" at a higher resistance when the opposite is true?

Yes of course, if prospective customer chooses to ignore the basic equation P = V*I (Power = Voltage*Current)

For the OP's benefit, I purposely ignored impedance vs resistance, AC and DC, a bunch of other issues and so forth to simplify the concept a bit for him as to why what he was doing wasn't really the best plan.

A good pre-amp on top of the Behringer he liked would solve his impedance matching issues and he would then be posting in the 'Rigs of Doom' thread. I'll ignore the manufacturer, let's say I prefer other products.

But since we are having so much, fun, maybe I should have gone down the mixing speaker sizes road, and the torches and pitchforks would all come out. I am not a fan of mixed speakers, but I have seen pics of some of Munji's rigs, and I know he had a big@$$ 15 under some smaller cabs on top. And as an accomplished bassist and engineer, his preferences or mine are something I am not going to bother to argue about.

In the OP's situation, I would second the previous suggestion and probably run the more powerful 4x10 with the Backline and upgrade later.