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Another PA thread. What size??Guidelines?

Discussion in 'Band Management [BG]' started by odie, Feb 5, 2004.


  1. odie

    odie Supporting Member

    My band plays mostly in medium to large clubs. This is all good but booking can be a nightmare with our personal schedules. Also I have found that smaller places often times are more fun. Problem is these smaller places dont have their own PA.

    So we are thinking about putting our own together. We have a old Peavey 500 watt(bridged) 250 watt or so(stereo) amp, a Yamaha 16 channel board, a bunch of Alesis rack effects, DBX stereo comp/gate, couple stereo eq's, mics for everything, some bassic (4) small Yamaha 12 and horn monitors. 2 of them are able to go on sticks.
    A mixer power head laying around here somewhere. I think it puts out 600 watts bridged not sure how much stereo.

    We were trying to figure out what we need to play smaller-small medium bars.


    We play some 80's rock(not hair metal) and mostly newer stuff like Linkin Park, Tool, Incubus, Taproot,RHCP, RATM stuff. So we do have some lower frequencies and I use the B' string alot.

    The guitarist and I used lug around PA's in our old bands. But we used big PA's in both cases and were way overboard.

    Can we work with any of this stuff?? Ideas? List equipment recommendation, Good bang for the buck items.

    We have some gigs coming up and we can use the $$$ from those.
     
  2. bill h

    bill h

    Aug 31, 2002
    small town MN
    We have a set of these SF25 Dual 15” 2-Way and they rock. I don't know if that is more than you want?
     
  3. odie

    odie Supporting Member

    Bill- What kind of music do you play?? Does this actually give the sound of two ways and a sub?? What power are using.

    Where are you located I live in Rochester,MN
     
  4. jive1

    jive1 Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member Commercial User

    Jan 16, 2003
    Alexandria,VA
    Owner/Retailer: Jive Sound
    It sounds like what you have will work out fine for you. If you rely on PA support for your bass, you may want to consider using 15"s as mains or add on a subwoofer. To give you an idea, I'll tell you what we use for a Blues/Classic Rock band with 3 vocalists, 1 too loud guitarist, 1 harmonica player, bassist, keyboard player, and drummer.

    This is what we use for smaller gigs:
    Yamaha EMX88S 8 Channel Powered Mixer Head (400W a side)
    2 12" Dayton Floor Monitors
    2 15" JBL Mains (on stands)
    3 Mics
    This is enough to accomodate 3 vocalists, a keyboard, a bass, a harmonica, and bass drum. We get plenty of volume for mains and monitors for a smaller gigs, with easy setup and takedown.

    For larger gigs, we use:
    Mackie CFX12 16 Channel Mixer
    1 Stewart PA1400 for mains (550W at 4 Ohms per side)
    1 Stewart PA1200 for monitors (400W at 4 Ohms per side)
    2 15" JBL Mains (on stands)
    2 12" Dayton Floor Monitors
    1-2 Vidsonix 8" Floor Monitors (for the drummer and maybe for the keyboard player)
    3 Mics for vocals, 1 for guitar, 1 for harmonica, 3 for drums
    Keyboard and Bass go into the PA direct for stage and house sound.

    We used to have outboard BBE Sonic maximizer and Alesis Microgate, but they have been ditched for simplicity sake.

    We can use the "large rig" for all gigs if we needed to. Epsecially since we replaced the power amp for monitors with a Stewart. The power amp/mixer/case combo is less than 50lbs. :hyper:
     
  5. Phat Ham

    Phat Ham

    Feb 13, 2000
    DC
    It sounds to me like you have a pretty good setup already. You'll probably be pretty successful using what you have right now. Add a crossover, a couple subs, and a power amp to power them all and you're set.

    Most of my band's gigs are at frat parties. One of our friends has his own PA and he always runs sound for us. it consists of a Mackie 24 channel board, two JBL 15in tops, two JBL MPro 2x15 subs, and a couple Behringer monitors. He has a QSC RMX2450 powering the subs and a Samson S700 for the tops. A Crown CE1000 powers the monitors. He has some outboard gear such as a compressor, feedback destroyer, and a graphic EQ. This PA is way overboard for frat parties, but I'm not complaining.
     
  6. jondog

    jondog

    Mar 14, 2002
    NYC metro area
    The rule of thumb for playing small bars is to have 10x the power of the juke box. :)

    Your gear sounds fine for small venues. Maybe add a sub if you want more boom.
     
  7. odie

    odie Supporting Member

    See my big concern was if the Yamaha 12's would be able to handle what we would put thru them. I believe they are S12E 65hz-14khz or the SM12IV 60Hz-16kHz rate.

    http://www.zzounds.com/item--YAMS12E

    I think since they are 12's that a sub would be needed. Any recommendations and what size of a amp to power them?
    Something thing with its own built in crossover would be nice.
     
  8. jondog

    jondog

    Mar 14, 2002
    NYC metro area
    We use the 15" powered mackie sub w/ our 10s (!), it works great. It's a bit pricy but since it's powered there's no extra amp to buy or carry. It has a built in xover.

    We use our own pa when we play small clubs, and it's wonderfully compact. 2 JBL powered 10s for mains, and the mackie 15 powered sub. In ear monitor for singer and drummer, powered hot spot for guitarist, no monitor for me. No external amps to mess with! Of course, my singer bought the most complicated digital roland mixer you can get, so nobody but him can run it, but it's still a cool small venue rig. Most of the bass tone comes from my amp, but the sub adds a nice thump.
     
  9. bill h

    bill h

    Aug 31, 2002
    small town MN
    odie, we play rock (pink flyd, RATM, Nirvana, STP and the likes.

    The speakers in question will not give you a lot of bottom, They will give you some.

    I sent you a PM back
     
  10. Tim Cole

    Tim Cole

    Jun 12, 2002
    Findlay, Ohio
    In my last band, I thought we HAD to rent big sound to get a good mix, in my new band, I learned different. The most importan thing to have a good FOH mix is to have a good stage mix. We get away with using a 8 channel powered board, and two yorkville 15 cabs, and we get, what I would consider to be a great sound. Of course, this requires good stage gear, and also, every room is different.

    Last week we blew some stuff up, and only ended up with vocals only through the PA, no monitors either. I had TB'er cheezewiz sit in a song, and I was very surprised how good it sounded out front! The eden 410xlt with some power, is a PA of it's own, just dedicated to bass. I couldn't believe how good it sat in the mix, and sounded so full on it's own. I do think though, that the weaker the backline, the more PA you will need for a good mix.

    Our new member has a pretty nice PA we will probably use on the bigger shows. 2 vega sub cabs, 2 JBL 2x15 full range cabs, and something or another for mid cabs. I really don't think we will need all of that, based on past experience with smaller gigs.
     
  11. Tim Cole

    Tim Cole

    Jun 12, 2002
    Findlay, Ohio
    I'd also like to experiment with one of the lexan drum shields, I think this could make a tremendous difference in stage volume, and overall mix.
     
  12. odie

    odie Supporting Member

    Tim are you using the monster Crown amp for your Eden Xlt?? I have a 4-10 xlt, but I only have a Eden WT-400 powering it.

    What kind of stuff are you guys playing?? What kind of power are you putting into those Yorkville's??
     
  13. Tim Cole

    Tim Cole

    Jun 12, 2002
    Findlay, Ohio
    Yup, due to apparently optimistic power ratings on some previous amps, I went BIG. I get 1200 watts at 8 ohms on the 410, I run it at about 2 (of 10) master on the navigator, and it is brutal.

    We do ALL kinds of stuff, from CSN&Y, to brooks and dunn, to tonic, to prince, eddie grant, house of pain......

    The powered board we were running into the yorkvilles was 400 watts, but I think we finally smoked it last week. Surprisingly, we always got a great sound out of it!
     
  14. jondog

    jondog

    Mar 14, 2002
    NYC metro area
    I jammed w/ a drummer behind one of these and was not impressed. I hadn't played w/ him before, but it felt just as loud as any other rock drummer. I think those shields are more for keeping your amps from getting picked up by the drum mics.
     
  15. bill h

    bill h

    Aug 31, 2002
    small town MN

    I may and probably am wrong, but thought they where so the drums don't bleed into the other Mic's on the stage.
     
  16. I would rely heavily on the backline. I believe your bass rig is more than adequate for small and medium venues and guitars - well, I have never met a guitarist who would have had too small amp! Leave the PA for vocals. You can perhaps put little bit of guitars and bass on PA for clarity and to make the band sound "bigger"; this is especially handy when there´s no stage and higher frequencies from guitar and bass cabs get absorbed in the front row. A little bit of click from the kick drum may be in place too. But the bulk of sound and the lower frequencies should come from the stage, don´t crank the PA with low end.

    Our bands big PA is as follows: H&K cabs, 15+horn top and 2x15 sub per side, biamped by yamaha amps (500W and 1000W per side respectively), 16-channel Allen&Heath mixer and two active monitors, one for singer and other one for the keyboardist. Everything is hooked to the PA and when the venues is right, it sounds pretty darn good. However, lately we have gotten lazy and gigged more and more with a smaller setup: we take just the top cabs, monitors and a 8-channel powered mixer (200W per side I think) We use it pretty much the way I describe above and it´s perfect for small places.
     
  17. Tim Cole

    Tim Cole

    Jun 12, 2002
    Findlay, Ohio
    Yup
     
  18. Tim Cole

    Tim Cole

    Jun 12, 2002
    Findlay, Ohio
    Ya, that is one of it's main uses, but you would also think that they could significantly reduce volumes right out in front of them too..