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Another simple question about building chords.

nbw

nbw

Nov 10, 2003
410
6
42
Arlington Texas
www.google.com
#1
To build a basic chord(musical term of which I forget) you just use the 3rd, 5th notes of the major or minor scale correct? Then if 7th, 9th or what ever else to add on to it in which the the name of which would be indicated in the chord name? So Cmaj7 would be C,E,G,B? It just seems far to simple to have not been explained to me by anyone a million times.
Why the 3rd and 5th specifically?
Now what about using other scales to build chords? Scales either being relatives of the major scale like the phrygian scale or completely different ones such as the harmonic minor or even stranger the super locrian scale?
Thanks.
 
#2
Adding The 3rd a 5th is a triad, the reason for the 5th is because of its relation to the root which is solid and the 3rd because it is a determining chord tone (a flat 3 is minor and a natural 3rd is major) the 7th is also a chord tone. to use scales to build chords just take steps from the scale the 3rd step 7th step etc.

for me personally when i play chords i usually do 7th chords using the root 3rd and 7th or just do power chords :bassist:
 
#3
Actually, it is both the 3rd and 5th that determine the type of triad. The 3rd alone could be major in both an augmented and major chord and could be minor in both a minor and diminished chord.

You can build chords on any group of three or more tones. Tertian chords are built on intervals based on thirds. That is to say {1,3,5,7,9,etc}. If you take the diatonic modes and derive the tertian tetrads you will see that the chords for aeolian, phrygian and dorian are all min7 chords, locrian is a min7(b5) chord ionian and lydian are Maj7 chords and mixolydian is a (dominant)7 chord.

When you are looking at the tetrads with other chords you apply the same principles. Harmonic minor has a minor triad with a major 7th, therefore it is a minMaj7 chord. Superlocrian has the same tertian tetrad as locrian so it will also be a min7(b5) chord.

By the way, 2 tones is not actually a chord, it is a harmonic interval. I would argue that while you can imply a chord by omitting the root of the chord you are not actually playing a chord unless there are three or more tones.

I've been through this stuff before elsewhere.
 
#4
I think I know what you are asking. Mutedeity properly emphasizes the number "three" for major and minor chords, and he's right that two notes is not considered a chord in Western music, where the word originates. Two notes together are called dyads or harmonic intervals or just "intervals." So it takes three notes to be a chord.

The first note, as you know, is the root (or I). And yes, then there are two more (III and V or iii and V) for major and minor. Don't forget that chords can be inverted (the root doesn't have to sound at the bottom of the chord). I think you've got all that (congratulations).

Adding a fourth note comes next.

Cmaj7 is C E G and B
C7 is C E G and Bb

Cmin is C Eb G
Cmin7 is C Eb G and Bb

C9 is C E G Bb and D (adding the 9th to the regular 7th)
Cmin9 is C Eb G Bb and D, I think.

As you can see, this naming system (if I've got it right) is not completely intuitive or transparent. All of those numbered chords like 11 and 13 are built on the 7th - but the regular 7th NOT the maj7. When no minor is indicated, assume it's the regular 7th (NOT the maj7).

This issue about where B/Bb belong in relationship to C has troubled musical annotators since the days of Pythagorus. However, since C sounds rather nasty next to B (except in the hands of master players, like all of us here on talkbass), Bb (one full interval below C) is the "real 7th" for a lot of music.

But techincally, B is the 7th of C - not Bb.

I love maj7 chords. Would love to know more about chords built on maj7 chords - need to learn that.

I do not know what you would call a chord that was C E G B D or C E G B F (13th). I know what to call C E G Bb D (C9) or C Eb G Bb D (Cmin9) (etc.)

At least, I think I know. I am sure someone will correct me if I'm not.
 
#6
Basically your stacking every other note of a scale up until you use them all. So Root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th. The distance between the changes depending on the scale you are building them from. Also you start eliminating notes as the chord grows due to physical and instrument limitations. The higher notes 9, 11, and 13 are sometimes referred to as extensions or color tones. Basic chords are alternating major and minor intervals.

Chords are also referred to Closed or Open voicing. Closed is like the name sounds the basic notes of the chord are close as possible usually within an octave. Open you are spreading the notes out. Typical guitar voicing are open because the way the strings are laid out.

There are special classes of chords called symmetric. Diminished chords where every note is a minor 3rd away from each other. Then Augmented chords where every note is a major 3rd from each other. Last is cluster that is a fixed combo of intervals that gets used to harmonize a melody.

That is the basics of chords there is more like slash chord, polychords, quartal harmony, and so on, that has more to do with voicing than notes in the chord.
 
#7
Sure you can harmonize other scales. How to name some of the chords may get tricky, but it's a legitamte way to develop chords. But I don't think of most basic chords as coming out of anytihing but the major scale. And there are two ways to look at them...

First, learn what intervals make up the basic chords. For example, a major chord is the 1, 3, and 5. A minor is 1, b3, and 5. Dominant 7 (mostly called a 7th) is 1, 3, 5, b7. Major 7 is 1, 3, 5. 7. Major 13 is 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 (2), 11 (4) and 13 (6) or all the notes in a major scale. Now you generally won't VOICE that chord using all seven notes, but that's what it is. Anyway, any good basic theory book will get you into this.

The other way to look at basic chords is to learn the harmonized major scale. Write out a C major scale. You'll get:

C D E F G A B C

Then stack the thirds on top, staying in the key of C. You'll get

E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Then repeat, staking the next thirds on top- you'll get:

G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C


And one more time for:

B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C


Now if you analyze each of those stacks you'll find that the first chord (C E G B) is a major 7, as is the fourth (Fmaj7). The second, third, and sixth chords are minor 7 (Dmin7, Emin7, Amin7). The fifth chord (BTW, the fifth note is called the dominant note) is the only dominant 7 (1, 3, 5, b7). The seventh chord is weird- it's a minor 7 with a b5. Sometimes it's called a "half diminished" but I stick with the description that tells exactly what it is- "minor7 b5".

Now do this for yourself in all 12 keys. You'll find that there's this same progression of chords-

I and IV are major 7
ii, iii, and vi are minor 7
V is dominant 7
vii is minor 7 b5.

That's what people mean when they talk about a progression being "two five one"- In the key of C it's Dmin7 to G7 to Cmaj7. In the key of Eb it's Fmin7 to Bb7 to Ebmaj7.

Work this out for yourself on paper and in your head. THEN find those notes on the neck. This is the single biggest help for learning how chords and bass lines go together and how scale create chords.

jte
 
#8
nbw said:
Why the 3rd and 5th specifically?
Click to expand...

Because most Western music is based on the concept of "tertian harmony" which specifies that chords are constructed by stacking intervals of thirds. The 3rd degree is (obviously) a third above the root note; the 5th is a third above that 3rd.

There is also music based on "quartal harmony" (chords constructed by stacking intervals of fourths), and composers have constructed chords based on stacking other intervals, as well as via completely different schemes than interval stacking. But those are the exceptions.
 
#9
The reason why "tertian" versus "quartal" or "quintal" or "secundal" or any other kind of harmony developed first is actually pretty simple. Originally, people thought in terms of intervals rather than in terms of structural harmony. Intervals were the guiding principle to determine whether or not a given harmony might work, not necessarily what "kind of chord" it might create (the concept of chord quality wasn't around yet). Thirds and sixths were considered the imperfect consonances, and fifths and octaves were considered perfect consonances (fourths were considered dissonant for a variety of reasons that don't pertain today). The reason why thirds and sixths were sought after is because the individual lines of melody could be most clearly heard (parallel fifths and octaves destroyed the individual character of each line), and in general were thought to provide the most euphony. Therefore, they were used in three and four part writing the most, creating "chords", the quality of which would later be clarified as major/minor/augmented/diminished, etc.

If you take a note and then stack two thirds, or two consonant intervals, its a triad. If you stack a third below and a third above its a triad. If its two thirds below, then its a triad. If it's two sixths above, its a triad. A sixth below and a sixth above, its a triad. Two sixths below, it's a triad. You see then the genesis of the triad from intervallic consonance?
 
#10
JTE said:
The other way to look at basic chords is to learn the harmonized major scale. Write out a C major scale. You'll get:

C D E F G A B C

Then stack the thirds on top, staying in the key of C. You'll get

E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Then repeat, staking the next thirds on top- you'll get:

G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C


And one more time for:

B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C


Now if you analyze each of those stacks you'll find that the first chord (C E G B) is a major 7, as is the fourth (Fmaj7). The second, third, and sixth chords are minor 7 (Dmin7, Emin7, Amin7). The fifth chord (BTW, the fifth note is called the dominant note) is the only dominant 7 (1, 3, 5, b7). The seventh chord is weird- it's a minor 7 with a b5. Sometimes it's called a "half diminished" but I stick with the description that tells exactly what it is- "minor7 b5".

Now do this for yourself in all 12 keys. You'll find that there's this same progression of chords-

I and IV are major 7
ii, iii, and vi are minor 7
V is dominant 7
vii is minor 7 b5.

That's what people mean when they talk about a progression being "two five one"- In the key of C it's Dmin7 to G7 to Cmaj7. In the key of Eb it's Fmin7 to Bb7 to Ebmaj7.

Work this out for yourself on paper and in your head. THEN find those notes on the neck. This is the single biggest help for learning how chords and bass lines go together and how scale create chords.

jte
Click to expand...

Wow, can you see it? The light just came on.

This may be obvious to most but I love your stack method to visualize the chord construction. I'm just starting my music theory instruction and this helped alot!

My instructor is tasked with trying to teach an old dog new tricks. :D
 
#11
Hoover said:
Because most Western music is based on the concept of "tertian harmony" which specifies that chords are constructed by stacking intervals of thirds. The 3rd degree is (obviously) a third above the root note; the 5th is a third above that 3rd.

There is also music based on "quartal harmony" (chords constructed by stacking intervals of fourths), and composers have constructed chords based on stacking other intervals, as well as via completely different schemes than interval stacking. But those are the exceptions.
Click to expand...

To hear chords built in fourths - listen to Scriabin's "Poem of Ecstasy" !! :)
 
#12
nbw said:
Now what about using other scales to build chords? Scales either being relatives of the major scale like the phrygian scale or completely different ones such as the harmonic minor or even stranger the super locrian scale?
Thanks.
Click to expand...

Since this was only vaguely touched on - using a mode of the major scale to form chords isn't going to give you any different chords than the major scale gives you, cause they're all the same notes, right? All that changes is function (sort of), but building a chord with G B D doesn't tell you if it's a V chord (in C major) or a "I" chord in G mixolydian, right? Using the harmonic and melodic minor scales is what gets you to altered chords.
 
#13
JTE said:
Sure you can harmonize other scales. How to name some of the chords may get tricky, but it's a legitamte way to develop chords. But I don't think of most basic chords as coming out of anytihing but the major scale. And there are two ways to look at them...

First, learn what intervals make up the basic chords. For example, a major chord is the 1, 3, and 5. A minor is 1, b3, and 5. Dominant 7 (mostly called a 7th) is 1, 3, 5, b7. Major 7 is 1, 3, 5. 7. Major 13 is 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 (2), 11 (4) and 13 (6) or all the notes in a major scale. Now you generally won't VOICE that chord using all seven notes, but that's what it is. Anyway, any good basic theory book will get you into this.

The other way to look at basic chords is to learn the harmonized major scale. Write out a C major scale. You'll get:

C D E F G A B C

Then stack the thirds on top, staying in the key of C. You'll get

E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Then repeat, staking the next thirds on top- you'll get:

G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C


And one more time for:

B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C


Now if you analyze each of those stacks you'll find that the first chord (C E G B) is a major 7, as is the fourth (Fmaj7). The second, third, and sixth chords are minor 7 (Dmin7, Emin7, Amin7). The fifth chord (BTW, the fifth note is called the dominant note) is the only dominant 7 (1, 3, 5, b7). The seventh chord is weird- it's a minor 7 with a b5. Sometimes it's called a "half diminished" but I stick with the description that tells exactly what it is- "minor7 b5".

Now do this for yourself in all 12 keys. You'll find that there's this same progression of chords-

I and IV are major 7
ii, iii, and vi are minor 7
V is dominant 7
vii is minor 7 b5.

That's what people mean when they talk about a progression being "two five one"- In the key of C it's Dmin7 to G7 to Cmaj7. In the key of Eb it's Fmin7 to Bb7 to Ebmaj7.

Work this out for yourself on paper and in your head. THEN find those notes on the neck. This is the single biggest help for learning how chords and bass lines go together and how scale create chords.

jte
Click to expand...

That was great. I really like that you call it 7 b5 instead of dim or half-dim. In older charts (I have a bunch), it's also represented with the degree symbol (a little circle). Took me ages to figure out those were all the same thing - and 7 b5 is much more descriptive/easier to remember.
 

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