Any other SS amps with output transformers out there except Hellborg?

[KF2B]

The guts of Hellborg pictured - any other solid states with output transformer out there?

 

[seamonkey]

It's a gimmick
It does nothing to help the sound. It plays on foolish audio myths
If transformers were so important you'd see amps with many of them.

If you want you can add a transformer to any amp, plitron will wind one to your specs
Link Removed

Tell them how many watts, and 1 to 1, or even do a multitap where you do 2 ohms on the amp side and 2, 4, 8 on the cab side.
It would squeeze out every single watt out of the amp. It won't be cheap, it won't improve the sound, except louder sounds better.

 

[beans-on-toast]

Go to rupertneve.com and read about their preamp design philosophy. Transformer in and out helps prevent noise from getting into the signal path. Good transformers make it sound better.

 

[seamonkey]

Pre-amps and power amps are different things. But it's entirely possible for small signal to match impedance, and balance lines without transformers like many of the top recording and foh mixers do these days.

 

[beans-on-toast]

The point Mr. Neve makes is that the sound is improved through the use of the audio transformers, class-A signal path, proper layout and components, etc.

Transformers aren't just about impedance matching, they change the signal and can impart tone. There are qualities that come out when the proper transformers are used. That is where the art in transformer design becomes important. With tests, two pieces can appear to be performing the same but they sound quite different. We can't, or perhaps don't know how at this point, measure everything related to the performance of a circuit with test equipment and fully interpret it in a meaningful way.

 

[seamonkey]

For Audio frequencies and circuits yes everything can be measured. All the way up to RF.
If somebody hears a difference it can be measured.
When a transformer imparts "tone" it essentially limits bandwidth. Which can be done with EQ easy enough.

Transformers for power amps are still totally useless. It's a gimmick.

 

[BioWeapon]

Don't iron core transformers saturate at low frequency and high power causing frequency response problems? Obviously a high-end properly designed audio transformer wouldn't have too much issue but I do recall reading that on an amp building webpage.

Can anyone confirm or deny?

 

[agedhorse]

For Audio frequencies and circuits yes everything can be measured. All the way up to RF.
If somebody hears a difference it can be measured.
When a transformer imparts "tone" it essentially limits bandwidth. Which can be done with EQ easy enough.

Transformers for power amps are still totally useless. It's a gimmick.

What if somebody THINKS they hear a difference, or is SURE they hear a difference, even if a difference doesn't exist?

Output transformers used to be necessary to drive electrostatic speakers, as well as to drive long distributed speaker system lines at 100 volts RMS. In the case of the distributed speaker system example, the output transformers served 2 purposes. The first was to step up the voltage of the amp, and the second was to isolate the amp from the outside world load (and all of the possible complications that damage to thousands (or tens of thousands) of feet of wiring might cause) In these applications, I wouldn't say that transformers are gimmicks.

 

[beans-on-toast]

Like, tubes, not everything can be measured and understood with our technology. By your contention, we should be able to fully understand the non-linearities of devices such as tubes and audio transformers. We can't at this time.

A transformer that imparts tone is doing more than limiting bandwidth and it can't be compensated for with EQ. Yes, we can measure anything. That doesn't mean that we are understanding the full picture when we interpret the data.

Mr. Neve has over 60 years of audio design experience and has a proven and successful track record. His design philosophy as to what makes an audio amplifier sound good, which he discusses in his videos and text on his site, makes a lot of sense.

 

[rufus.K]

Soooo, any other SS amps with output transformers?

 

[beans-on-toast]

Don't iron core transformers saturate at low frequency and high power causing frequency response problems? Obviously a high-end properly designed audio transformer wouldn't have too much issue but I do recall reading that on an amp building webpage.

Can anyone confirm or deny?

You answered your own question. There are different design objectives and high end properly designed audio transformers will do a better job in their intended applications.

Fender used to use low end transformers in their early amps. They would smoke and spit fire when pushed hard, but they sounded great. BTW, saturation does not sound good. Other things are going on.

 

[BioWeapon]

You answered your own question. There are different design objectives and high end properly designed audio transformers will do a better job in their intended applications.

Fender used to use low end transformers in their early amps. They would smoke and spit fire when pushed hard, but they sounded great. BTW, saturation does not sound good. Other things are going on.

Ah, yeah I guess I kinda did. I do that by mistake sometimes But thanks for confirming on the saturation point. One day I'll take a few hours to google everything I need to know about transformers.

 

[Mr. Foxen]

Like, tubes, not everything can be measured and understood with our technology. By your contention, we should be able to fully understand the non-linearities of devices such as tubes and audio transformers. We can't at this time.

All the relevant stuff probably can be measured. It is the linking the measurements to the sounds and the descriptions either side that is hard. Our ability to describe sound in words is rubbish. The language limitations are compounded by the way musicians (mostly guitar players) misuse words intended to describe sound so much their accepted meaning starts changing.

Interesting to see the OT in the Hellborg is toroidal, whereas toroidal OTs in valve amps are regarded with some suspicion.

 

[beans-on-toast]

Soooo, any other SS amps with output transformers?

If an OPT in a SS power amp were such a great thing, you's think that others would be using the approach. There's a long list of DIs and preamps that use output transformers.

It costs a lot to include the transformer in the Hellborg amp. The company doesn't provide technical details as to why this was done.

From a review: "While these are an output transformer’s essential roles, OTs also have a few side benefits, like protecting speakers from a cone-shredding dc signal (audio is ac) and more important, introducing a small amount of pleasing distortion into a signal when pushed hard. Finally, by lowering the output impedance, OTs have a significant effect on “damping factor,” the degree to which an amp is able to control the movement of a speaker’s voice coil. Due to their inherently ultra-low output impedances, solid-state amps don’t care all that much about speaker load impedance, at least not when compared to tube amps, so they almost never use an OT. But Hellborg believes that a lot of the magical allure of tube amps—fat tone and a musically dynamic responsiveness—is due to their OT-equipped design, so he added one onto his solid-state amp."

Solid state PA power amps are an exception. Transformers can be helpful with long cable runs where efficiency is an important consideration.

 

[beans-on-toast]

All the relevant stuff probably can be measured. It is the linking the measurements to the sounds and the descriptions either side that is hard. Our ability to describe sound in words is rubbish. The language limitations are compounded by the way musicians (mostly guitar players) misuse words intended to describe sound so much their accepted meaning starts changing.

Yes. Measuring is useless if we can't interpret the data. They go hand in hand. You have to be capable of measuring and understanding what you have. How can you fully measure and accurately quantify something that makes you feel good when you listen to it. Listening helps refine the design. I think that it takes more than test bench measurements.

 

[Mr. Foxen]

If it were such a great thing, you's think that others would be using the approach.

Transformer PIs and power supply chokes are great, but they are expensive compared to alternatives, so barely ever used. Cheaping out on the iron is a pretty dominant force in the market.

 

[beans-on-toast]

Transformer PIs and power supply chokes are great, but they are expensive compared to alternatives, so barely ever used. Cheaping out on the iron is a pretty dominant force in the market.

Transformers are also expensive.

 

[agedhorse]

Transformers are always used where they are necessary.

 

[B-string]

I see the Helborg as an answer to the "you gotta have an output transformer for THE sound" guys. There was also an OTL (output transformerless) tube amp that wasn't received all that well. Lots of output tubes but no OT. People can come up with all kinds of "reasons" for the way "old all tube amps are better". Mostly unsubstantiated and conflicting reasons given. The Helborg was an "answer" to one of those "reasons". IMO.

By the way, early SS amps also used output transformers. The component was carried over from tube designs until more capable devices and designs came about.

 

[MVE]

My Demeter has a transformer between the pre and ICE power module.
Obviously not an output transformer but it is in signal path.