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Anybody having problems with Thomastik Jazz flats & rounds?

akori

akori

Oct 18, 2007
355
36
Colorado
#1
Hello:
I've been using TI Jazz Flats & Jazz Rounds on all seven basses for years now (flats for a couple of years, and rounds for the last six months or more, on five fretless and two fretted basses).
I could go on for days about the seeming impossibility of the tone and volume these light strings produce. I'd hate to use anything else.

But, I'm collecting a few problems here, and I think either the cores are delicate/ or maybe I'm over-stretching them on install.
I do try to be gentle with them, they are so light and springy. but I've had one G flatwound and one G round with bad buzzes that were cured with a swap. I notice another G round sounds chorused open, a bit dead closed. Another Fretted J bass with TI rounds has ridiculous oscillation, though I just intonated it (oh, it definitely needs fretwork, b/c the six month old neck has gone through it's initial shift, adjusting to climate). I also dropped the Jazz PuPs, but that oscillation is there...if it's not the buzzy upper register frets that are doing it. It's really hard to intonate it, too...this is weird.
I do NOT want to talk poorly of Thomastik ...they are incredible, and I have not ruled out everything here. Bad to start rumors...Especially about a company that is so dedicated to supreme quality. They responded to a previous question with great speed, and wanted the damaged string back to examine. Now THAT'S what I call dedication!
But...as I just asked them in an email: Do the TI flats and rounds stand up to normal stretching when being strung up? I have always stretched all strings, as They never get stable or feel right until then, but I have to wonder.
Anybody having similar issues with TI strings?
Thanks.
 
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#2
Stretching the strings is not useful, and altough is widely done, is not good fo string's life.

try not to do that. They'll be fine tuned in some hours...

I used to stretch them on my guirats, but then noticed problems very often. Since I don't do that anymore, always perfect.
 
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#3
Pier_, I do remember DR urging customers not to stretch highbeams, stating it is not needed. I don't know what other manufacturers say. I have always suspected that they tell this to customers to avoid damage to the cores, not because it's actually true. Reason being, in my nearly 40 years of playing, and in the opinion of every luthier I've ever known, and every factory authorized repair person/ builder, stretching just enough (and not too much), enormously enhances stability, and to my touch, makes strings slinkier...Now, that said, no doubt one could damage a string, and it does indeed take a sensitive touch.

But this is the dilema, eh? I'm interested to know what Thomastik tells me. Seriously, though, (IME), all strings just feel like crap and slide out of tune until they're ready for replacement if not gently but thoroughly stretched.
OH MY GOD, what kind of flame fest have I started. God knows, "40 years" of experience could be 40 years of total ignan'ce, as far as any one else is concerned. If I had a dime for every person who said moving a J pickup 3/4" of an inch didn't make a difference, or the body wood or neck has no effect on sound... maybe me, and all my mentors are wrong. It's happened before.

I ought to give it a try with my next set of TI rubber bands...damn, it
is hard not to stretch those things, like avoiding fresh baked cookies!
 
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#4
In my former life as a guitarist, one thing I was taught NOT to do was to force-stretch newly installed strings, but to let them settle naturally instead once tuned up to pitch and keep tuning them periodically until they were stable enough to stay in tune in order to avoid "premature metal fatigue".

Thankfully, I don't need to change strings on my bass nearly as often as I used to with my guitar, but when I do, I always make sure to do it just before going to bed so I can let them stretch naturally overnight.
 
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#5
In my experience TI Jazz flats and rounds are rather sensitive to being installed with any amount of twist in the strings. I always endeavour to make sure the ball rotates into a free, non-twisted state before cranking up the tension. Otherwise the sound is compromised and they fail early. [They're on six of my basses.]
 
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#7
jmlee said:
In my experience TI Jazz flats and rounds are rather sensitive to being installed with any amount of twist in the strings. I always endeavour to make sure the ball rotates into a free, non-twisted state before cranking up the tension. Otherwise the sound is compromised and they fail early. [They're on six of my basses.]
Click to expand...
jmlee: this seems at least a reasonable conclusion; they are after all, smaller strings, and I wouldn't be surprised if their exquisite sound properties are achieved with the aim of: sound first, durability second, to put it simply. I have strung/ restrung many sets many times, but would still say their failure rate is higher than other strings, like DRs. Trouble is, to me, the TIs, flats or rounds, have changed my whole set of expectations. (Perhaps I'd try a custom light set of singles from DR, but that's all I'd consider as a substitute).
 
#8
I could assemble a very close match of DR hi beams for a mere
jmlee said:
In my experience TI Jazz flats and rounds are rather sensitive to being installed with any amount of twist in the strings. I always endeavour to make sure the ball rotates into a free, non-twisted state before cranking up the tension. Otherwise the sound is compromised and they fail early. [They're on six of my basses.]
Click to expand...
Jmlee: I agree about avoiding twisting...it's ironic, because TIs have a pronounced ropiness to them, anyway. I can feel a definite twist in many sets. A bumpiness that undulates along the length of the string. It's odd.
 
#12
It's my understanding that strings should be tugged on to tighten the wraps around the tuning post, and not to stretch the strings. I'll tune them to pitch, tug on them, they'll downtune a little, and tune them back up. I do that two or three times till they're stable. I've done this with DR's, TI's and every other kind of string and never had any issues. You just gotta be gentle.
Unlike this:
 
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#13
Gorn said:
It's my understanding that strings should be tugged on to tighten the wraps around the tuning post, and not to stretch the strings. I'll tune them to pitch, tug on them, they'll downtune a little, and tune them back up. I do that two or three times till they're stable. I've done this with DR's, TI's and every other kind of string and never had any issues. You just gotta be gentle.
Click to expand...

That made me cringe.

I've never had problems stretching strings. Like you say you gotta be gentle and simulate what would happen naturally from playing them. Letting strings settle naturally is a luxury most pros don't have so they and their techs learn to stretch strings without damaging them. If I'd ever handed someone an instrument with ustretched strings in the middle of a set I'd probably have gotten fired.
 
#14
Pier_ said:
I stopped using DRs because I found an high number of dead strings and in particular gauge issues, like a 45 G that was 40, but in a 45-105 set, and similar cases...
I'll never ever use DR again :p
Click to expand...
Pier_, it's unfortunate that over the years, many string manufacturers experience quality control issues. (And/ or change materials or processes, affecting tone/ feel). I was once a Rotosound SwingBass player exclusively (as was every rock player, it seemed). But at some point, they began to sound & feel different to me, and I moved on. I never found anything I liked as much until I stumbled on DR Highbeams (for their tone and slinkiness).
I felt some variation with them over the years, but never quit them until I finally morphed into being able to use Thomastiks-which I swear, are the weirdest and simultaneously coolest feeling strings ever. But, yeah, I'd guess all manufacturers go through hiccups that may involve large lots of strings, or may affect certain players in their buying cycle, so those players move on. It's a bummer, when you NEED a particular string. I myself don't like changing brands; adaptation to strings is difficult for me, I'm way picky.
 
#15
Jeff Bonny said:
That made me cringe.

I've never had problems stretching strings. Like you say you gotta be gentle and simulate what would happen naturally from playing them. Letting strings settle naturally is a luxury most pros don't have so they and their techs learn to stretch strings without damaging them. If I'd ever handed someone an instrument with ustretched strings in the middle of a set I'd probably have gotten fired.
Click to expand...

INDEED, jeffbonny, that video must have been done ironically. VERY ironically. I chuckled, then just shut it off. Can you say "damaged core?" How about :"I dunno what happened, I was just wildly bouncing my bass by the strings, and then I punched myself in the face, I guess, because I woke up with a bloody nose, and there's a broken bass string and my axe is lying on the floor with a broken headstock!"
You're spot on: most pros don't have the luxury of stretching strings over days. Damn straight, if a tech hands a set of unstretched strings up over the stage, the bassist and the band are going to sound like crap when the stage lights warm those wires up. But I'm still probably going to change my methods, perhaps just stretching them with a tune up to F#-A#-D#-G#, stretching them without that break angle. I'm sure that's where any dammage is going to occur first.
Cheers
 
#16
akori, I've experienced problems with DRs in three years, buying them from different stores (online or personally), and to me they have the worst quality control ever.
Rotosound too gave me issues (I was talking about it in another thread), but in percentage, I got less "perfect" DR sets than "issued" ones, probably a 30-70% gap...
with Rotos, wich I use and love (to me they sound the best for everything that needs a roundwound sound), the percentage is the opposite, with less than 30% of "issued" sets, and more than a 70% perfect ones. my TIs are always perfect out of the pack.
 
#17
akori said:
INDEED, jeffbonny, that video must have been done ironically. VERY ironically. I chuckled, then just shut it off. Can you say "damaged core?" How about :"I dunno what happened, I was just wildly bouncing my bass by the strings, and then I punched myself in the face, I guess, because I woke up with a bloody nose, and there's a broken bass string and my axe is lying on the floor with a broken headstock!"
Click to expand...

That video made me cringe as well. I was also thinking "Are you crazy? That can't be good for the neck. What happens if the string snapped?". Then I read your post and burst out laughing.
:roflmao:
 
#18
akori said:
Hello:
I've been using TI Jazz Flats & Jazz Rounds on all seven basses for years now (flats for a couple of years, and rounds for the last six months or more, on five fretless and two fretted basses).
I could go on for days about the seeming impossibility of the tone and volume these light strings produce. I'd hate to use anything else.

But, I'm collecting a few problems here, and I think either the cores are delicate/ or maybe I'm over-stretching them on install.
I do try to be gentle with them, they are so light and springy. but I've had one G flatwound and one G round with bad buzzes that were cured with a swap. I notice another G round sounds chorused open, a bit dead closed. Another Fretted J bass with TI rounds has ridiculous oscillation, though I just intonated it (oh, it definitely needs fretwork, b/c the six month old neck has gone through it's initial shift, adjusting to climate). I also dropped the Jazz PuPs, but that oscillation is there...if it's not the buzzy upper register frets that are doing it. It's really hard to intonate it, too...this is weird.
I do NOT want to talk poorly of Thomastik ...they are incredible, and I have not ruled out everything here. Bad to start rumors...Especially about a company that is so dedicated to supreme quality. They responded to a previous question with great speed, and wanted the damaged string back to examine. Now THAT'S what I call dedication!
But...as I just asked them in an email: Do the TI flats and rounds stand up to normal stretching when being strung up? I have always stretched all strings, as They never get stable or feel right until then, but I have to wonder.
Anybody having similar issues with TI strings?
Thanks.
Click to expand...

Can't go wrong with these strings… unless you're loving them to death. There may be silk in there. That's worth remembering.

I have this for you, from Acoustic Masters, regarding 'stretching in,' if this helps. Helped me no end. :)

String elasticity and ‘stretching in’

A material behaves elastically when it returns to its original size after being stretched.
String elasticity is a property that seems to be widely misunderstood. There is a belief that new steel strings permanently elongate before they settle down and can be relied upon to tune to a stable pitch. It is even commonly recommended that this supposed stretching-in can, and should be accelerated, by grabbing the string somewhere around its middle and forcibly yanking it away from the guitar. This is an unnecessarily violent thing to do and can damage both the string and the guitar. It may result in a permanent kink in the string by flexing it beyond its elastic limit. Once this happens, the strings harmonic purity is compromised, even though the kink may seem to disappear when the string is tuned to pitch. Pulling on the strings can cause the ball ends to bite hard into the bridge plate, accelerating wear in this area. Any tuning instability for a new string is not due to permanent elongation, but to settling and slippage at the bridge and tuners. Careful and correct installation of new strings will minimise and even eliminate this movement.
Click to expand...

I believe the whole article, by Terry Relph-Knight, which is in two parts, is well worth going over, even though the focus is on the acoustic side of (strings) things. Links follow,

http://www.acousticmasters.com/AcousticMasters_Strings1.htm

and

http://www.acousticmasters.com/AcousticMasters_Strings2.htm
 
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#19
No need to "stretch" anything, I would say. Pull to tighten and settle around the tuning pegs only. I wanted to "like" that answer when it showed up earlier, but the video in that post made that impossible. :)
 
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