Thank you all.Something Im concerned about right now is that my 94 Mesa Bass 400+ needs some attention after all these years of faithful service,not even a blown fuse in that time.So right now I am torn between sending it to Mesa[over $200 to ship to them and back from 45840]plus at least 2 hours of labor at a $110 an hour plus parts coming to around $500 maybe.I love the sound of the amp but after that will it give me 20 years more of faithful service or will it become problematic and need this just a few years down the road.Ive heard a few of the newer class d amps that sound okay but not like my 400+.After hearing about the channel strip option thats why I thought I would ask everybody.Thank you all for your input.
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Anybody out there using a channel strip for a preamp?
- Thread starter BruceG63
- Start date
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,047
- 5
- 221,002
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
I think you will be disappointed with a channel strip solution compared with your current amp. What you have is quite voiced, not a common attribute of channel strip preamps.
Then there’s the power amp, which is low damping factor and designed to be overdriven with good results.
Then there’s the power amp, which is low damping factor and designed to be overdriven with good results.
Thank you agedhorse.Thats something I havent considered is what you just mentioned.That the 400+ is designed to sound good with a bass guitar and the channel strip might end up being a jack of all trades and a master of none.What is your opinion of repairing my amp and hoping it will be good for another 10 to 20 years or is that wishfull thinking.
I tend to ignore comments like that - you just know that prosumer gear is never going to cut it. You just need to spend those $$ to be inducted into the holy circle of golden ears.
Yes I understand the voltage can be raised, but if this is not done in pedal pre, and used 4.5VDC per side for rails compared to something common in channel strips or solid state pres (+/-15? +/-30?). Can this be heard?
Of course tubes may need up to 300VDC unless starving plate design.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,047
- 5
- 221,002
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
That's something that I would recommend having Mike B. at the factory do. He's really good at restorations and has a good stock of most legacy parts.
Since taste is subjective this is not really accurate. If someone likes the result they get with their prosumer channel strip and think it sounds better than a Sansamp, that is entirely acceptable.
What is the amp doing that makes you think it needs to go back to Mesa for an overhaul? If it just needs a general service and you have a decent local tech, this should not be necessary.
The amp runs 12 6L6GC, which costs about $23 each. 12x23=$276. There is a good chance most if not all of the small signal tubes are still good. It would not surprise me if the tech can get in and out in one hours. So you are probably in the bag for about $400 unless the amp has a major problem.
For comparison 6550s run about $45. 6x45=$270. It's not really that more expensive to retube the 400+ than a 400 or an SVT running 6550s.
You should easily get 20 more years out of the 400+, but it may have a few hickups along the way. That is the nature of tubes. You should consider tubes to be expendable maintenance items like oil, filters, and spark plugs in a car. When they are damaged or wear out, you replace them. That is just the normal cost of running a tube amp.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,047
- 5
- 221,002
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
I do not think that 1 hour is an adequate amount of time to go through the entire amp, there are a lot of things to check and in some cases replace depending on how many hours the amp has been operating and what kind of handling it received over the past 20+ years.
We warranty repairs and do not want to see them come back because of an avoidable oversight.
We warranty repairs and do not want to see them come back because of an avoidable oversight.
The amount of bench time will depend on what is required. I don't think it's unusual for a tech to do a tube job and basic service in approximately one hour. It might run a bit longer, but probably not much unless the amp has significant problems.
Of course this level of service probably does not measure up to Mesa's. So if the OP is a touring pro, I would suggest sending it to Mesa. If he's a casual musician, probably not unless the amp is in really bad condition. I do think Mesa would do superior work on the amp, but still I have a hard time justifying the cost and risk of shipping it unless it needs a major rebuild.
For the record I sent both my M9 and Titan to Mesa for the "required" reliability updates. AFAIK the difficulty of these updates is beyond what should be attempted in the field, and nobody but Mesa has the necessary expertise. I believe the service involved replacing the power transformer and essentially rebuilding the output section in both amps. My understanding is there can be significant circuit variances from amp to amp; so each update is practically a custom job. My perception is these updates are way more of a technical challenge than servicing a tube amp. When my Mesa D180 needs serviced, I don't plan to ship it.
Another reason to send an amp to Mesa is if the OP does not have access to a reputable tube tech.
Im fairly knowledged on tubes as I have my own tube tester and replaced all the tubes about not quite a year ago with tubes from Mesa that I bought with my 1/2 price coupon that comes with the amp.Thanks to Mesa Boogie for still honoring the coupon even though the amp is out of production.So it has all new tubes with a SPAX7 in the 1st spot.Ive taken very good care of the amp.It hasnt been pushed very hard and looks good cosmetically.Im getting sporadic noises that come and go kinda like static mixed with some helecopter kinda noises that make me uncomfortable using it.My friend that repairs electronics said he would rather not try to fix it and I should ship it to Mesa despite the shipping $ would be my best bet as they designed the amp and would most likely know what problems and where to look for issues unique to that amplifier.I dont have any other people in my area that look at it.The only other place I can think of would be Sweetwater Music about 100 miles away.Ive figured if I drive it there and back taking it there and picking it up that 4 trips and in fuel and my time would probably be an easy $100.So that might save $100 vs shipping but Mesas knowledge of the amp might mean less labor therefore being around the same $.This leaves me confused.And yes I am just a local musician in a R+B band,not a pro or I would be going another route.
@agedhorse told you right:
A Boogie 400+ is an entirely different animal than a preamp (or channel strip) + Commercial stereo power amp (QSC, Crown, Yamaha, etc.)and serious cabinets, and it's all down to the components considered.
A great bass amp (and a 400+ in fighting shape is certainly on that list if you're a tube guy) is, as he said, voiced, that is designed all the way through to be a great bass amp, and it sounds like one to most people.
This 'other' rig is built / designed to do entirely different things, chief among them being virtually colorless, exceptionally low distortion, and far higher headroom, driven correctly. And for some cats (like me), the subtle coloration and massive capability of that kind of rig is a tradeoff I'm willing to make for the sensation of simply turning it up and it just gets louder and louder without the tone changing until the needles are way off into the red. However, for a lot of guys, that one is just incredibly dry and lacking to their ears.
In a lot of gig situations, you substitute that fat room rumble for literally being able to hear open E like a piano note. This is unnerving to some.
I once had a fabulous bass player customer who we loaned an IVP/CS800/JBL Cabaret rig to try out while we were working on his tube head. He liked how loud it would get and how clean, but he couldn't wait to get his head back and his old tone. 'It's great, but it's just too clean'.
Like most things, it's all very subjective, and we all have different preferences.
Should you decide to stick with the 400+, unless you have someone TRULY qualified where you live, I'd certainly recommend sending it to Mesa. Not cheap, but this has served you well for a long time, and name me anyone better to make it ready for another 10 years. I can't think of any.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,047
- 5
- 221,002
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
I see the results of under-qualified techs and it always costs more to correct these repair attempts.
Based on this post, I concede and suggest sending it to Mesa.
Also what your describing sounds like the amp is having sporadic oscillations. IMHO, you are correct...not a good idea to use it till it's fixed.
If I had a little $ at my disposal I would be half tempted to try the TT800 but im 65 on a fixed income[retired]and that isnt in the budget right now.Getting the most bang for my buck looks like getting the 400+ fixed.I havent heard one of the Subway bass heads but after this being the eighth piece of Mesa gear Ive owned over the years Im sure they would do class d justice as Mesa doesnt do anything part way.I use to own one of the 1st D180s and 215 cab when they first hit the market.
Long term, the cost of owning the TT800 is likely to be lower. I would not be surprised if the total cost of sending the 400+ back the Mesa exceeds more than half of the price of a TT800.
Some of the decision comes down to how committed you are to the way the 400+ sounds and feels. IMHO it's a fabulous sounding amp. Hard to assess what you think without taking the opportunity to play a TT800.
Another important factor is the TT800 will be much lighter.
For the record I learned to play through a Fender Twin into a Traynor 810 (YC-810, Big-B). The first amp I bought was an SVT with an 810. My point is I know what it's like to deal with a big tube rig.
For the duration of my professional career, I tended to use modestly sized solid-state rigs. For the record we toured with about a 28' box truck that was equipped with a lift gate. I could have easily used an SVT and 810 if I wanted to, but it's really not my sound and I would not want to deal with loading and setting up such a beast on a daily basis. My choice reflects my personal preferences, but YMMV.
Early in my career one of my peers used a Mesa 400 with a 215 cab. I have to admit he sounded fabulous.
Your probably right about the cost of repairing the 400+ coming close to 1/2 the cost of the TT800 and far less upkeep with the new amp.Lately ive seen the 400+ going for $1500 to $2500 on Reverb.If I could sell it for enough to buy a TT800 once my amp is repaired I just might do it.Im figuring $450 to $600 to repair my amp with shipping.I might even consider a D800+.
This does not indicate whether it was local sale or the amp was shipped.
Currently two are listed. One at $1,800 and one at $2,500. Both are marked local pickup.
I like that because in 94 I paid $1099 for it from Dixie Music in Louisville KY.And in all the years from 94 to about a year ago I never even changed a fuse and now there is a good chance its worth more now than when I bought it.In all my years of bass playing[mid 70s on]I think it was the best music gear investment Ive ever made.And it still sounds great compared to whats available today.Thumbs up Mesa Boogie!
