Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Anybody switching between 6 and 5 or 4?
- Thread starter Just Wrong
- Start date
Sorry, it's the best I could do given we are not able to interact directly and we don't have a captive audience of non-musicians to serve as guinea pigs in an experiment.
Regardless, it's well-established that bass guitar speakers do not need to accurately reproduce the fundamentals of the lowest notes on the B string for people to be able to hear and enjoy those notes. This is consistent with my own experience, and there are plenty of comments on TB from highly-educated industry experts to support the claim.
If I need to work on material that I know will be played on 4 string, I pick up a 5 and avoid the low B.
Sorry, my bad. In my day job I'm an experimental psychologist so I do actually have access to a pool of more less willing subjects and proposing experiments to adjudicate offhand conjectures is a pretty regular occurrence when shooting the breeze over lunch. (We never actually do such experiments because we're too busy doing our actual research, but these are routine hypotheticals for us.)
Obviously true but not what I was on about. I never said you get nothing. When I play "Runnin' with the Devil" on my phone it's not like I hear silence during the intro despite the fact that there's no way my phone is kicking out the fundamental for Eb1.
What I am suggesting is that the primary (but not only) difference between, say C#1 and C#0 is the fundamental. If the fundamental isn't being reproduced, these notes aren't dramatically different. Yes, they're still different and certainly people—particularly musicians—can still hear that difference. But my conjecture is that if you are in a situation where the fundamental is missing, in the context of a typical rock song (i.e., something one might play at the local watering hole), if the bassist substituted C#1 for C#0, almost nobody in the audience is likely to notice. So to bring this back to relevance to the thread, practically speaking from the audience's perspective, there's not much difference between having a 4 and having a 5. Obviously as a player it matters—almost certainly easier to transpose down if you have the 5—but my bet is that the audience won't notice, much less care.
If I understand, you're basically saying it's a waste of time to have and use a low B string because either the audience won't know the difference or won't care.
I will start with this. It matters to me and has an impact on how well I perform. IMHO, if I perform better, it's better for the audience.
The sophistication level of audience members tends to vary widely. If the difference between C0 and C1 is reasonably discernable, some will definitely notice the difference and some will not. Some will actually notice the difference and chide you for having a B string. After all, a real bass only has 4-strings. Yes, this actually happens
.It's true that it can sometimes be difficult to distinguish between C0 and C1 during live performances. But IME this is not always because the speakers are incapable of reproducing the fundamental of C0. It often relates to acoustic degradation caused from the build up of indirect sound. Lows tend to bounce around and take multiple paths to the audience's ears. So the listener winds up hearing lows that are smeared and incoherent.
IME, Sometimes applying an HPF can not only increase clarity and focus, but also create the impression of more bass. However my belief is boomy incoherent bass is often related more to build up in the upper bass and/or low mids. This part of the frequency spectrum tends to be crowded and problematic, and it is much more relevant to pitch perception than sub bass.
I mentioned earlier in the thread, the E string is often impacted in a similar way as the B string. The Ampeg 810E is not even close to flat to 40hz, and yet many consider it the gold standard. Would you argue that people should play 3-string basses because many cabs can't accurately reproduce 40hz or because it's sometimes difficult to hear the E string clearly?
The reality is there are times when pretty much every note on the bass sounds awful (to my ears); regardless of the quality of your gear or what you do. So if we continue with the same logic, we eventually get to the point where the recommendation is simply, "Don't play bass." Perhaps for some this is good advice. Not for me. I will continue with my 6-strings.
If limited low frequency response is a valid reason to avoid a bass with a B string. There are ways around it. The Acme Low B cabs were designed specifically to reproduce the fundamental of the low B string. Their response is down -6dB at ~30hz. Supposed the Ampeg SVT410HLF is rated 28hz at -10dB. Another option would be to invest in a massive Danley sub which is rated to 15hz at -3dB. Link Removed.danleysoundlabs.com/products/dts10/
Last edited:
My unabashed opinion...
If you're playing a 6 string, I say stay with it. What is the point of going to a bass with less strings?
When you switch from one bass with a different number of strings you have to adapt to a new hand orientation. Folks going from a 4 to a 5 get jacked up for some time because IT TAKES TIME to adapt. I went from 4 to 5 and it took me 6 months on the 5er to even become comfortable. I have a 6er for some time and I like playing it, but for me it's more of a soloing instrument because of the C string that doesn't exist on a 5 or a 4.
Think of it this way... ALL THE NOTES THAT COME WITH A 4 OR A 5 ARE ALL THERE WITH A 6.
If you are comfortable with a 6 there is absolutely no reason that I can see to think about a different bass for learning. There may come a time when you might find a 5 or a 4 more advantageous for one reason or another. But I can't think of any. Good luck.
If you're playing a 6 string, I say stay with it. What is the point of going to a bass with less strings?
When you switch from one bass with a different number of strings you have to adapt to a new hand orientation. Folks going from a 4 to a 5 get jacked up for some time because IT TAKES TIME to adapt. I went from 4 to 5 and it took me 6 months on the 5er to even become comfortable. I have a 6er for some time and I like playing it, but for me it's more of a soloing instrument because of the C string that doesn't exist on a 5 or a 4.
Think of it this way... ALL THE NOTES THAT COME WITH A 4 OR A 5 ARE ALL THERE WITH A 6.
If you are comfortable with a 6 there is absolutely no reason that I can see to think about a different bass for learning. There may come a time when you might find a 5 or a 4 more advantageous for one reason or another. But I can't think of any. Good luck.
This is true, but there are tricks played by phone DSPs that make low frequency sounds sound audible, like by artificially boosting harmonics or by adding harmonics that were not present in the original. You won't hear, let alone feel, the deep sounds, but you will have an impression that they're there.
This is correct, and there is a way to show that it's a fundamental (pardon the pun) difference. Play the open E0, B0 or F♯0 (on a 6-string tuned G-D-A-E-B-F♯), plucking the string above the 12th fret. No harmonics, virtually no sound out of the speaker (unless you overdrive). Nobody plays that way of course, and if you play closer to the bridge, you'll get plenty of harmonics, but a proper C0 would be very different from a C1 when playing a sequence of sounds. If you have to transpose an octave up during a cadence, it becomes obvious that it shouldn't sound that way.
This is very true. The biggest difference will be the ease to play if you're comfortable with a 5-string.
And obviously harmonics play a role even if the audio system is unable to reproduce the fundamental frequencies of a low note, but if you're listening to the music for the music, then it's obvious that something is missing from the sound. It's empty, it lacks something… fundamental.
It's true that the useful low-end extension in a typical speaker can turn out to be usable if you place your speaker in a room in a corner and get +6 dB boost from boundary effect, but then you're in a room, so unless the room is huge, room modes can cancel out any gains for at least some audience members in a completely unpredictable fashion.
If you have a good stereo system which can reproduce the lowest sounds faithfully, you can hear the difference easily. I can immediately hear a difference when I turn the subwoofer on or off on the receiver even when playing rock or metal. There is plenty of sound in the lowest frequencies, and even the best DSP tricks can't imitate them.
Yikes! No, that's not what I'm saying at all. It's definitely not a waste of time to have and use a low B.
All I'm saying is that most of the benefit is for the player, not the audience. And even that depends on the capability of the sound reproduction in the venue. The PA at my local House of Blues, for instance, can definitely go down into the 30s so when I see a band there I'm happy to see a 5-string because I know I'll really hear it. (Polyphia comes to mind; man does he like that low B.)
But there are some bars here where I know I won't. From the audience perspective, in those places, there's not that much difference between a 4 and a 5, at least in terms of what's heard. That's all I'm saying.
I most certainly agree with you that, as a player, if the 5 makes you play better—heck, even if it doesn't make you play better but just makes it easier—then it's definitely a good idea. If wearing the right shoes makes you more comfortable such that you play better, do that, too.
For sure. I have 1500w of subwoofer (a 900w 1x15 and a 600w 2x12) in my HT system because I want to hear the 20Hz in the explosions, and the 30Hz low B fundamental. Those kind of fundamentals are awesome when you can actually hear them!
I have a standard 6 string, so it only goes down to B.
I tried plucking over the 12th through two different pairs cabs. First pair is Genz Benz GB1288T-UQ. Response is listed as 45-18kHZ +/- 10dB; so I don't expect fundamental from the B.
The second pair is EV TL405 that were built in step down mode. Usable response is supposed to extend to 24hz. Whatever fundamental is there should come through.
There is also the matter of the built in HPF on the Amp, a Trace Elliot V-Type tube head. I have no idea where it it set.
Maybe I misunderstand. I got plenty of sound out of both sets of cabs. Obviously the TL405s are a bit fuller down low, but the GB1288T-UQs do not sound anemic.
The resulting tone from plucking at the 12th from is not totally unheard of. This is not too far off.
