Anybody using a subwoofer cab in their live rig?

[micguy]

I send a full range signal to FOH to push as they see fit. Those 30 Hz notes can ruin your stage sound in a hurry though. Having a sub or other ultra lows as part of your stage rig only interferes with having good sound when it blows directly into the vocal mics and otherwise washes away sound detail. I didn't mean to infer that all bass should be high passed at 70 Hz, just that sub lows are very overrated coming out of a backline.

I agree - as I say pretty often around here, bass guitar cabs (what gets used in your "backline rig") don't handle low frequency signals well. You shouldn't drive those with the fundamentals of your B string, but if the PA is decent, sending then to the PA is just fine, and is a big part of why big shows sound so good. If subs weren't a good idea, tours would save a lot of money and not take them along - the mains (usually line arrays) in a good PA nowadays usually go down to about 60 Hz. The subs are only needed for the lowest octave on a 5 string, and to add some oomph to the kick.

 

[Wasnex]

That technique is not a new idea - I designed a high end surround system that did the same thing a few decades ago.

Nobody is claiming the idea is new. I used EQ to extend the LF response of an Ampeg 810 in the early 80s. IMHO it worked pretty well and I came to the idea simply by experimenting with my rig. The system I spec'ed with Bag End TA and ELF cabs was put together in the mid 90s.

FYI Bag End INFRA used to be called ELF. Supposedly Edward M. Long and Ronald J. Wickersham patented the processing techniques in 1984 (US Patent 4481662) The patent and old Bag End ELF Guide claims the corrective EQ is generated in a way as to minimize phase shift. So there appears to be a bit more going on than simply adding some EQ.

Ref:

https://bagend.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/US4481662patent.pdf

https://bagend.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/ELF-GUIDE-COMPLETE-V-1.3.pdf

 

[micguy]

Nobody is claiming the idea is new. I used EQ to extend the LF response of an Ampeg 810 in the early 80s. IMHO it worked pretty well and I came to the idea simply by experimenting with my rig. The system I spec'ed with Bag End TA and ELF cabs was put together in the mid 90s.

FYI Bag End INFRA used to be called ELF. Supposedly Edward M. Long and Ronald J. Wickersham patented the processing techniques in 1984 (US Patent 4481662) The patent and old Bag End ELF Guide claims the corrective EQ is generated in a way as to minimize phase shift. So there appears to be a bit more going on than simply adding some EQ.

I read the patent - curiously, it's dated about the same time I was working on our system. There really is nothing but some eq and a limiter. Phase shifts are minimized simply by using the same order in your integrator that the speaker has as a "differentiator" - a closed box is two poles of high pass, the eq filter uses two poles of low pass, nothing magical or complicated there. A lot of the limiter details are left out - you do that in patents - you try to make your claims as broad as possible. Our system was similar - our circuit modeled the excursion of the loudspeaker, and when it got close to it's limits, it raised the corner frequency to avoid over excursion.

 

[agedhorse]

That technique is not a new idea - I designed a high end surround system that did the same thing a few decades ago.

I read the patent - curiously, it's dated about the same time I was working on our system. There really is nothing but some eq and a limiter. Phase shifts are minimized simply by using the same order in your integrator that the speaker has as a "differentiator" - a closed box is two poles of high pass, the eq filter uses two poles of low pass, nothing magical or complicated there. A lot of the limiter details are left out - you do that in patents - you try to make your claims as broad as possible. Our system was similar - our circuit modeled the excursion of the loudspeaker, and when it got close to its limits, it raised the corner frequency to avoid over excursion.

Exactly, the two functions cancel naturally.

 

[Ron Berenato]

Was it one of these?

1810 or 1820

View attachment 7441164

Exactly one of those. Minus the castors. I can’t believe I used to be able to lug one of those up stairs by myself. I remember it as the 18210.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Exactly one of those. Minus the castors. I can’t believe I used to be able to lug one of those up stairs by myself. I remember it as the 18210.

I had two at one point

 

[joe vegas]

I am and it definitely moves some air, punches and goes deep. Greenboy fEARless F112 on top of a 12” sub.
View attachment 7440808

that looks fantastic. great combo, the 2 12s. thanks

 

[joe vegas]

back in the 80s, I ran a Carvin PB300 with the crossover set for lows to the internal 300 watts going into a 1x18" Yamaha PA Sub and the highs into a Kustom 4x12 that I loaded with 4x EVM-12L when they were new & cutting edge powered by a 100 watt amp that was mounted in the back of the cab.

Currently using an all tube 200 watt head into a pair of Bag End D12-B and considering a custom Bag End powered Infra 2x12" made to match my other pair... I keep riding the fence between "I don't need it" & "but OMG that would be soooooo cool"




(pictures of similar from the interwebz)
View attachment 7440805View attachment 7440806

Great combo! thanks

 

[joe vegas]

Biamping was somewhat of a thing in the 80s and 90s. So yes it has been done.

It's addictive as a player. It sounds and feels great close to the rig. However, IME it frequently doesn't translate well to the audience. Basically the sound of bass gets darker and more diffuse as it travels over distance. So it's often beneficial to start with the sound a bit lean and mid-rangy up close to the rig.

In particular Anthony Jackson has run rigs composed of Meyer Sound PA gear, which is very high-end. Some references mention USW-1P subs. Here is the spec sheet: https://tcfurlong.com/wp-content/uploads/Meyer-Sound-USW-1P-Rental-Spec-Sheet.pdf

I remember reading multiple threads on TB where people commented that AJ's live sound with the Meyer subs was a rumbly incoherent mess.

A related conversation is bedroom tone VS the type of tone the works life. Bedroom tone tends to get lost in the mix. However, with a powerful high fidelity rig, you can get bedroom tone at whatever volume is necessary to hear clearly. However, doing this means you will probably blow out the room; I.E. be way too loud.

awesome info. and great Meyer spec-sheet. i saw AJ maybe 30 times live & indeed, his sound distinctly shifted per venue and rig, for sure. Thanks!

 

[Chris Wilke]

I have a 115 passive sub and a stereo SwR head and an outboard crossover. I've tested it at home with a 112 or 210 on top and it's awesome.

I'm just waiting for a call when: a) I know a sub is appropriate for BG, and b) I know FOH won't be providing a sub.

That day has not come. YMMV

 

[joe vegas]

There is this one local bass player that runs a rig like this... I can't remember if it was a 1x15 or 4x10 or 1 x18 cab on top, he had an 18 inch sub on bottom. His rig sounded amazingly clear and full, but the band only used PA for vocals and guitar were 4x12 cabs, so no other PA to contend with.

that's the direction i'm headed.. an 18" sub with a 2x12 cab, each with its own amp head, an AB box, & bass

 

[joe vegas]

i'm thinking of a cheap but hopefully effective "Anthony Jackson/Phil Lesh"-vibe setup for places without a PA..
a 2x12 cab, an 18" sub, each powered with a separate Bugera Venyon 1000w, linked into an AB box.
not about volume, but "orchestral" depth.

 

[joe vegas]

I have a 115 passive sub and a stereo SwR head and an outboard crossover. I've tested it at home with a 112 or 210 on top and it's awesome.

I'm just waiting for a call when: a) I know a sub is appropriate for BG, and b) I know FOH won't be providing a sub.

That day has not come. YMMV

sounds perfect.

 

[joe vegas]

Anthony went through some different iterations of his rig with the subwoofer. It was a rumbly incoherent mess when I heard him around 1990 at the Ventura Theatre with Lee Ritenour - the room was boomy and not at all sympathetic to that type of rig. If i remember correctly, the signal chain was:
Bass> volume pedal> Klark-Teknik 1/3 octave eq> crossover> high end went to wedges on stage, low end was sent to Phase Linear power amp and to the sub.

I had a couple of friends that were also in the band, and they (and Lee) had difficulty with the volume and massiveness of Anthony’s sound over the course of the tour. They were playing a venue somewhere in Europe, and during sound check Anthony whomped on a low C and a huge pile of chairs stacked in adjoining room came tumbling down (I’ve always aspired to that but never succeeded).

I heard Anthony some years later with Wayne Krantz at the 55 Bar in NYC, and he had a similar rig but with a small Vox guitar amp for the high end. That was the opposite experience and probably one of the best live bass sounds I’ve ever heard - massive and authoritative in the low end, but with incredible definition and a bit of sparkle on the top end. Of course his playing was just beautiful, like the low end of an orchestra.

oh man.. made my day with yr description of AJ's 55 Bar sound. great days there indeed. that aesthetic you describe was similar to 1st hearing him with Eyewitness at Mickel's, uptown.. that rolling subterranean wave with guitar highs & cello mids..

 

[joe vegas]

Subwoofer. Check it's specs. Open E is 41 hz. Can the sub do it? Open B is 31 hz, very few bass speakers can go this low.

Acme full range bass speakers can do the open E's 41 hz @ + or - 3 db. And, can do the open B's 31 hz @ -6 db. Very few bass cabs can do this kind of low end.

With Acme bass speakers, there's no need for a sub.

ACME SOUND | Bass, Guitar, Keyboards, PA Cabinets – Full-range, uncolored loudspeakers for musicians.

thanks for that info!

 

[John D Harris]

If I wanted that type of sound, I'd just buy something like a Genzler Magellan 800 head (or a Bergantino Ultra or Genzler Kinetix 800 if you can afford it) and then either one of these two combinations:

1. Bergantino Reference II 112 (pair) over a Reference II 115;
or
2. Mesa SW212 over a SW115.

I understand you have a nostalgic thing for bi-amping, but I almost guarantee that either of the above rigs will sound better.

 

[DJ Bebop]

If I wanted that type of sound, I'd just buy something like a Genzler Magellan 800 head (or a Bergantino Ultra or Genzler Kinetix 800 if you can afford it) and then either one of these two combinations:

1. Bergantino NXT212 over a Reference II 115;
or
2. Mesa SW212 over a SW115.

I understand you have a nostalgic thing for bi-amping, but I almost guarantee that either of the above rigs will sound better.

Agreed
As I said earlier I was into bi-amping for a long time, before the using of a powered sub. It was multiple speaker cabs, racks of power amps and outboard gear. After all of that, it is this now…

 

[John D Harris]

If I wanted that type of sound, I'd just buy something like a Genzler Magellan 800 head (or a Bergantino Ultra or Genzler Kinetix 800 if you can afford it) and then either one of these two combinations:

1. Bergantino Reference II 112 (pair) over a Reference II 115;
or
2. Mesa SW212 over a SW115.

I understand you have a nostalgic thing for bi-amping, but I almost guarantee that either of the above rigs will sound better.

I'd add the Mesa D-800+ and WD800 and the Gallien-Krueger Legacy 800 to that list.

And Trickfish Bullhead 3k if you can afford it.