Anybody using a subwoofer cab in their live rig?

[MCS4]

Biamping was somewhat of a thing in the 80s and 90s. So yes it has been done.

It's addictive as a player. It sounds and feels great close to the rig. However, IME it frequently doesn't translate well to the audience. Basically the sound of bass gets darker and more diffuse as it travels over distance. So it's often beneficial to start with the sound a bit lean and mid-rangy up close to the rig.

I did some biamping in the early 2000s, most often with a 2x10 and 1x15, and never found it particularly useful. After a while I ended up just bridging the amp into the two cabs and felt the result was overall a little better. These days I use 4x10s and for me they don't lose anything at all in terms of fatness compared to setups I've used with 15s.

 

[HolixBass]

On large outdoor rigs, I usually take my SWR Big Ben sub as a second cab.

 

[waveman]

There is this one local bass player that runs a rig like this... I can't remember if it was a 1x15 or 4x10 or 1 x18 cab on top, he had an 18 inch sub on bottom. His rig sounded amazingly clear and full, but the band only used PA for vocals and guitar were 4x12 cabs, so no other PA to contend with.

 

[bassdude51]

Subwoofer. Check it's specs. Open E is 41 hz. Can the sub do it? Open B is 31 hz, very few bass speakers can go this low.

Acme full range bass speakers can do the open E's 41 hz @ + or - 3 db. And, can do the open B's 31 hz @ -6 db. Very few bass cabs can do this kind of low end.

With Acme bass speakers, there's no need for a sub.

ACME SOUND | Bass, Guitar, Keyboards, PA Cabinets – Full-range, uncolored loudspeakers for musicians.

 

[Solipsistik]

Subwoofer. Check it's specs. Open E is 41 hz. Can the sub do it? Open B is 31 hz, very few bass speakers can go this low.

This is a concern. Our Yorkville does not do a whole lot for bass guitar, it isn't obvious to the listener that it's adding much from it. My QSC KW181, on the other hand, seems to track bass guitar reasonably well.

It's not my imagination either, I've seen numerous reviews of the QSC (when I was researching a purchase) and they make note that this sub will recreate bass guitar when many subs do not do a good job of it.

 

[Wasnex]

The dual 12 system (the big boy of that series) has a - 3dB point of 60 Hz. Not really a sub.

The D12E is rated +/- 3dB to 8hz with the required Integrator.

Not particularly powerful at 8 hz though.

 

[Medicine Man]

I play a 5 string and usually have to high pass around 60-70 hertz just to tame the lows of a full range cab. Subs anywhere on stage straight up overwhelm any mics that may be turned on. I think it's a bad idea unless you play reggae or edm inspired music with bad pa support. Even then.

 

[micguy]

The D12E is rated +/- 3dB to 8hz with the required Integrator.
View attachment 7441035

Not particularly powerful at 8 hz though.
View attachment 7441037

Yeah, technically it's producing "some" output at 8 Hz, but the integrator is just EQ'ing the thing. Pretty much trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip - you aren't going to get anything useful down there. It's a 60Hz closed box (as is a fridge cabinet). In a small room, it might be useful. Might.

 

[micguy]

I play a 5 string and usually have to high pass around 60-70 hertz just to tame the lows of a full range cab. Subs anywhere on stage straight up overwhelm any mics that may be turned on. I think it's a bad idea unless you play reggae or edm inspired music with bad pa support. Even then.

A well setup PA with capable subs, you don't need to cut out the fundamentals of your B string. That kind of extended low end in a decent sized room is glorious. Trying to make a b ass amp do 30 Hz, however, will get you into all kinds of sonic trouble. 30Hz, well reproduced, is not "mud". Asking a woofer that can't do 30Hz....to do 30 Hz is where you get harmonics that are mud.

 

[scuzzy]

i have to cut the bass at the amp and also run a HPF for me not to get too overwhelmingly boomy in our space. if I took a sub, they would toss me out.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Back in the day I had a Peavey cabinet with 2 10's and an 18". The 18 filled the room with bass and most nights the sound guy kept me out of the PA. To be able for me to hear it on stage I was too loud, because that 18 threw serious low end out into the audience. Just a thought to consider.

Was it one of these?

1810 or 1820

 

[yonkrz]

Not necessarily a sub, but I have a DB115 (vertical)under an SL112, no gig just home use.Im sure my neighbors don’t dig it

 

[mauerkraut_]

I had an SVT-18E for awhile which I used to run as a sub cab with my 810E (overkill but it was fun)

Additionally the sub cab paired well with an 800RB which I used the cross over and set it 100 Hz or slightly above when used as a pure sub, or at about 500 Hz when I biamped with a 12” cab

Where I found the most use though was using it as a sub cab for my Moog bass synth. I would use it sometimes to get some bass on stage or practice while taking a DI for full frequency to FOH.

 

[agedhorse]

The D12E is rated +/- 3dB to 8hz with the required Integrator.
View attachment 7441035

Not particularly powerful at 8 hz though.
View attachment 7441037

The unprocessed response is -3dB at ~60Hz.

When processing, the LF SPL falls like a rock because the integration algorithm eats up power as the sensitivity falls (also like a rock). IIRC, the algorithm is something like 12dB/octave power-wise or 24dB/octave voltage-wise using a Linkowitz Reilly transform function which inversely compensates for the "ideal" speaker rolloff.

It takes a LOT of cabinets and power to achieve meaningful results in a live environment, especially with a dynamic signal.

 

[Wasnex]

Yeah, technically it's producing "some" output at 8 Hz, but the integrator is just EQ'ing the thing. Pretty much trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip - you aren't going to get anything useful down there. It's a 60Hz closed box (as is a fridge cabinet). In a small room, it might be useful. Might.

Yes that is the way it's designed to work.

The general theory is sealed cab rolls of at a rate of 12dB per octave below resonance. AFAIK Bag End INFRA cabs are generally tuned to roll off from about 80hz. The Bag End Dual Integrator applies a 12dB per octave rising response to mirror the natural roll off. The integrator also has some built in tricks to include limiting to prevent over excursion and Concealment which shifts the LF cutoff higher as the system approaches its LF limit.

Here's discussion on Concealment:

To get strong output at the lowest frequencies you need a lot of cabs and a lot of power. The general rule is doubling the cabs and doubling the power gets you 6dB more output. As the specs show, the D12E is rated 123dB at 80hz and 88dB at 8hz; so output at 8hz is 35dB lower than output at 80hz. If I am doing the math right , you would need at least 57 D12Es for 123dB at 8hz. Since each cab is rated 400W that means you need 57 x 400 = 22.8kW. Also since each cab is 69lbs it means the subs weigh 3,933lbs...let's call it two tons . Probably not doable for most of us.

What's Reasonable With D12Es? Of course that's on each person to decide for themself. For the D12E, output at 40hz is 11dB down from 80hz. To get 123dB at 40hz requires about 4 D12Es. For 123dB at 20hz you need about 15 D12Es.
Real World Experience:

I built a system using 4 of the S18 Compact subs pushed with 400W per cab. The S18 Compacts had 1/2 the internal volume of the regular S18, which AFAIK incurred a bit of a penalty in sensitivity.

IME a single quality 18" sub would easily bury four S18 Compacts in regards to SPL. However the four little subs worked well for a cover band that played at moderate volume.

The LF cutoff was adjustable on the old ELF 1 integrator I used. I experimented and chose to cut the S18 Compacts off at 40hz. Letting them run lower than 40hz resulted in the Concealment circuit producing fairly audible artifacts well before the mains ran out of headroom. With the type of material we played, the 40hz cutoff worked well.

 

[Wasnex]

The unprocessed response is -3dB at ~60Hz.

Correct, however INFRA subs are not really intended for use without the processor.

 

[J Wilson]

In the 80's I'm experimented with bi-amping, and to make a long story short . . .

It didn't transition well into the room.

Standalone FR bass cabinets were never designed to work as HP/LP two piece systems as are FOH system cabinets.

Since this wasn't time aligned, standing right in front of it, I'd hear the high pass . . . with the sub signal a hair behind it.

So, that was that. There simply wasn't hardware for bass guitar specifically to biamp in a useable fashion for me.

 

[bass player 53]

What I’m saying is not to be taken too seriously, but back in the day, when you opened your car door, then walked into the club, you knew there was an Acoustic 360 thing in the house.

 

[Medicine Man]

A well setup PA with capable subs, you don't need to cut out the fundamentals of your B string. That kind of extended low end in a decent sized room is glorious. Trying to make a b ass amp do 30 Hz, however, will get you into all kinds of sonic trouble. 30Hz, well reproduced, is not "mud". Asking a woofer that can't do 30Hz....to do 30 Hz is where you get harmonics that are mud.

I send a full range signal to FOH to push as they see fit. Those 30 Hz notes can ruin your stage sound in a hurry though. Having a sub or other ultra lows as part of your stage rig only interferes with having good sound when it blows directly into the vocal mics and otherwise washes away sound detail. I didn't mean to infer that all bass should be high passed at 70 Hz, just that sub lows are very overrated coming out of a backline.

 

[micguy]

Yes that is the way it's designed to work.

The general theory is sealed cab rolls of at a rate of 12dB per octave below resonance. AFAIK Bag End INFRA cabs are generally tuned to roll off from about 80hz. The Bag End Dual Integrator applies a 12dB per octave rising response to mirror the natural roll off. The integrator also has some built in tricks to include limiting to prevent over excursion and Concealment which shifts the LF cutoff higher as the system approaches its LF limit.

That technique is not a new idea - I designed a high end surround system that did the same thing a few decades ago.