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Anyone else feel like expensive basses are arbitrarily priced?

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#61
drlndrve said:
Is it because basses are electronic driven that there is such a debate? I don't want derail the thread but I've read tons of threads on whether wood has gone, etc... At the very least there is considerable disagreement because you get high-end owners who feel and hear the difference side-by-side with Squire owners saying the same thing. You rarely hear this argument when it comes to acoustic guitars, and other non-electronic instruments. I play trumpet and you rarely hear a player say their middle school horn plays like a Monette or a Bach Stradivarius. That being said Wynton Marsalis could make a lead pipe sound good and Victor Wooten Would play an ironing board with strings better than me on my Sadowsky.
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Acoustic instruments mean materials drastically effect tone. An electric bass body and neck basically is a medium for a vibrating wire to transfer that sound wave via a magnet to an amplifier. You probably knew that, but I'm just pointing out that magnetic coil is more impactful as well as said amplifier in your tone than basswood vs mohogany. But we believe such funny things like somehow our imagination overrides proven fact.
 
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#62
I think some of the qualities that differentiate a good instrument from a great one are not the things that you can see , like fancy woods. I have a few Carvins which I really like, but I have had the opportunity to briefly hold and play Sadowsky and Fodera and they are just better. I think its not just wood and pickups but many small details which when combined create the difference.
 
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#64
to answer the question ... i do agree that ' some ' bass prices seem arbitrarily set ... i think they tend to overvalue artist models frequently ... sadly , expensive doesn't always mean that it's worth it ...

i've had a couple basses that spec'd out to retail $6k ish ... luckily employee pricing helped wonders ...

and many other not so cheap basses/guitars ... a few where worth the price of admission ( at a good deal )

what i took from it was ... now i play Warmoths ... i know what parts and pieces i like best , so i part mine together ... just for me ... for under a grand ... and since i buy mostly used parts , it will hold it's value .!

they seem to price things beyond that point of diminishing returns ... !

having spent some time buying overpriced toys ... value for the dollar is the new rule for me .. !
 
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#65
Menorahman said:
How are they "just better"? I have a feeling that if you ran an experiment with mislabeled instruments, most people would say the bass with the fancy name was better, despite it being a MIM jazz or something.
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I think perhaps small details like say the Warwick proprietary nut system which make maintenance easy and such. Tone wise *shrug*
 
#66
I really can't articulate how or why I liked the very few boutique basses I've tried but there is definitely a difference in my hands and to my ears. That said my Carvins aren't going anywhere and there is pretty much no chance Ill ever own a bass costing more than $2000 bucks.
 
#67
I own a 2015 Thunderbird USA bass that is not cheap and sounds pretty good but does show signs that it is a mass produced instrument. Given the cost of US labor in today's market and all of the other costs a company has to bear in order to do business, I think that I've probably gotten good value in the instrument that I got. As time goes on and I become increasingly aware of the shortcomings in the bass, due to Gibson trying to cut costs, and begin to contemplate custom modifications to make it be and sound like I want, I realize that I might have been better served to have followed my original impulse to purchase either a German made Warwick or an Alembic. Prestige factor side, I see some of these higher-end instruments as the way to get the features, parts quality and build quality one wants.

I currently have an inquiry in progress with Alembic to see if I can get one of their Europas with custom mods that I want. Their shop in Santa Rosa is just up the road from where I live and I could just drive up there and have a good talk with their builders about what is possible, and I could monitor the progress of the build in person. When I get my Thunderbird back from the shop I'm going to put it on consignment sale and just get a beater bass from Starving Musician to use until the Alembic is done.
 
#69
on topic:
Boutique builders who are making a small number of custom instruments a year, using commonly used hardware and electronics, will spend anywhere from $900-$1600 on materials, parts, shop supplies, adhesives, etc. (This is assuming one-off custom hardware, piezo + midi systems and full fb inlays are out of the equation) Add a percentage of other expenses:workshop building maintenance, tool maintenance, electricity and shop climate control. Then, ask a builder how many total work hours go into a build and then do the math to get an idea of how much they make per hour. Compare to how much do you pay your plumber or electrician per hour.

They will only sell at a steady rate if there is demand for their level of work.

In the violin world, new one-man workshop instruments range from $8k-$45k, and the variation in price is not based on bull$hart or wood pricing, but many man-hours at the workbench, experience/reputation and workmanship that is appreciated by people who make the art of making music their life.
 
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#70
I don't know much about their basses, but Gibson's 2015 guitar were beyond terrible. Gibson in general has gotten pretty bad, so I assume their newer basses are mediocre as well.

It's crazy how much a name means to people. Maybe that's why so many people try to sell their new boutique bass a month after buying it new.
 
#73
Menorahman said:
Really instruments in general, especially mass produced ones, but also boutique as well.

I don't pretend to know how much it costs each builder to make a bass, but what exactly makes something $2000 vs $4000 vs $10,000? If a guy like Brian Barrett can build the LEJ and sell it for $3,500, what makes a Fedora worth 10 grand? Why is a Sadowsky $4,500 when some of the build is outsourced? And then Roscoe / MTD adds another $2000 on top.

It just makes me wonder when I see these basses that already cost thousands, and then you're presented with options like a different pick guard for $300 or block inlays for $400. This is even worse with some mass produced stuff like Gibson, who will sell the same (low quality) guitar for $1500 more because of some random ornaments.

I'm starting to feel like these instruments are so valued simply because they have high price tags and bring with them 'prestige' due to the name. There's another topic on here about a unique crow-looking bass from a builder in Germany. Even though it is unique and was hand-built over two years, lots of people were scoffing at it due to it costing $5000 and being from a 'no-name builder.' Yet I also see people defending the cost of more expensive boutique builds who come from people who weren't always so well known either.

While I'm sure they are quality instruments, I think the affection is mostly psychological in conjunction with the name on the headstock. My friend swears that the few Gibson LP's he's played just "felt different and better" though he couldn't figure out why. So despite the evidence of shoddy builds, there are people who will love Gibsons no matter what. On the other side of the spectrum, I've seen people say they like their Squier more than their $6000 boutique. Personally, I believe most instruments will sound and play around the same given a proper setup and specs to your liking.
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By that logic, dont forget high end lawyers, cars, athletes, musicians, perfume, shoes, architects, doctors, food, prostitutes, watches and on and on....and don't forget producers in there.

Now change the perspective; look at it from the side of the buyer... buyers with disposable income arbitrarily decide how much they are willing to pay for luxury items. As a whole, the people who offer goods/services do much more research than do buyers of such. Sellers do specific research of supply/demand, costs of production, desired profit or, in the case of boutiques with less research money, just comparative research of their competitors/colleagues.

I see that you are a grad student. It is a shame that our education system doesn't require the study and understanding of basic principles of economics before graduating high school, let alone college. You seem to scrutinize the value of things intuitively, though. Let's see if that changes once you have more disposable income after you "arbitrarily" set your musician/ production charges once you are big time.
 
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#74
Bass Viking said:
I've played a few vintage instruments: 1962 P Bass, 1965 Jazz, 1959 Les Paul, 1960 Telecaster guitar, a couple of pre-CBS strats, and an old Bass VI. I can't for the life of me understand why these instruments are so revered. Not that they were bad or anything but just nothing special. Even the owner of the Les Paul said it wasn't really any better than the new stuff.
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Some people like old stuff. Some people like new stuff. Some people like new stuff that looks old. Some just like stuff, old, new, whatever. I'm in the whatever crowd. If it makes you happy buy and play it.
 
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#76
Menorahman said:
Really instruments in general, especially mass produced ones, but also boutique as well.

I don't pretend to know how much it costs each builder to make a bass, but what exactly makes something $2000 vs $4000 vs $10,000? If a guy like Brian Barrett can build the LEJ and sell it for $3,500, what makes a Fedora worth 10 grand? Why is a Sadowsky $4,500 when some of the build is outsourced? And then Roscoe / MTD adds another $2000 on top.

It just makes me wonder when I see these basses that already cost thousands, and then you're presented with options like a different pick guard for $300 or block inlays for $400. This is even worse with some mass produced stuff like Gibson, who will sell the same (low quality) guitar for $1500 more because of some random ornaments.

I'm starting to feel like these instruments are so valued simply because they have high price tags and bring with them 'prestige' due to the name. There's another topic on here about a unique crow-looking bass from a builder in Germany. Even though it is unique and was hand-built over two years, lots of people were scoffing at it due to it costing $5000 and being from a 'no-name builder.' Yet I also see people defending the cost of more expensive boutique builds who come from people who weren't always so well known either.

While I'm sure they are quality instruments, I think the affection is mostly psychological in conjunction with the name on the headstock. My friend swears that the few Gibson LP's he's played just "felt different and better" though he couldn't figure out why. So despite the evidence of shoddy builds, there are people who will love Gibsons no matter what. On the other side of the spectrum, I've seen people say they like their Squier more than their $6000 boutique. Personally, I believe most instruments will sound and play around the same given a proper setup and specs to your liking.
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Careful Bro, I know exactly where your coming from but Ive started threads like this in the most benign manner and ended up being insulted by cowards that hide behind their keys. Bottom line is your exactly right.
 
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#79
Menorahman said:
I don't know much about their basses, but Gibson's 2015 guitar were beyond terrible. Gibson in general has gotten pretty bad, so I assume their newer basses are mediocre as well.

It's crazy how much a name means to people. Maybe that's why so many people try to sell their new boutique bass a month after buying it new.
Click to expand...
Cant beat Carvin Bro.
 
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