Anyone else feel like expensive basses are arbitrarily priced?

[Double E]

The OP is becoming quite the rabble rouser. How is this newbie able to get such a reaction to his time honored topics?

 

[FlatwoundFunk]

I'm going to attempt to rephrase (some of the wording can be offensive) a repetitive comment that was said to me from different wealthy individuals in different ways (due to there race and historical backgrounds) that IMO means the same. NOT saying I agree, but the proof is in the pudding.....

"If you want to be rich or financially comfortable in America, fine something shiney and insignificant that YOU CAN MAKE IT seem priceless and needed to sell to the unknowing". Because the overwhelmingly majority of US in this society purchase and live based on sheer emotion, this is accomplished in most consumer markets. Not saying that there are not any good products out there that warrant the pricing. Just saying that an educated consumer is the best consumer. Not an emotional one.
FF

 

[FlatwoundFunk]

The OP is becoming quite the rabble rouser. How is this newbie able to get such a reaction to his time honored topics?

What makes him a newbie?
FF

 

[asahisuperdry]

What makes him a newbie?
FF

Probably a misplaced sense of superiority as if time spent on a message board somehow changes the validity of one's opinions.

 

[lfmn16]

What makes him a newbie?
FF

Being a member for 6 weeks.

 

[asahisuperdry]

Actually, no, if folks stopped buying basses for 2 years we would go out of business, not drop our prices. The reality, for better or worse, is that we price our instruments where we need to in order to remain a viable, self-funding business. There are numerous threads in which I have gone into great detail about the economics of Fodera. In a good year (and, sadly, not all years are good years), we generate a 10% profit...

There seems to be a theme from some in this thread that all high-end basses are arbitrarily priced. In our case, at least, that is absolutely not the case. We price our basses based on the cost of making them and, hopefully, to allow for a modest profit. I think that there are massive misconceptions about just how expensive it is to build things from the very best materials available, almost entirely by hand using fairly-paid people (with reasonable, company-paid benefits) in a city like New York.

We could very easily decide to compete on cost. If we did that we would need to (among other things):
-Fire people and automate;
-Move our manufacturing overseas;
-Reduce or eliminate paid company health benefits and retirement savings programs;
-Use cheaper materials;
-Use off the shelf (rather than proprietary) parts and electronics.

And, the ultimate perversion is that by making these changes we would likely INCREASE our profit margins. Yes, you heard that correctly -- Fodera could build much less expensive, more cheaply made instruments and also be far more profitable. However, for better or worse, that is not what we are about. We very much like producing a limited number of instruments and being able to spend a LOT of time with our customers -- treating them the way we would like to be treated by companies and developing relationships with as many of our players as possible.

We like spending a LOT of time selecting the wood that we will use for each instrument. We like making each instrument as reasonably close to "perfect" as we can. We like trying to build the best instruments we are capable of building without thinking about how to cut corners or compete on price. At our core we are driven by an artistic / craftsman ethos. Yes, we are in business, but there are a great number of far more profitable endeavors out there if making money was our first priority.

We absolutely are not the right bass for everyone -- and that is fine. As many have mentioned here, the opportunity to buy a well-made bass for very little money has never been better. Automation, the availability of incredibly low-priced, overseas labor, easier (or no) environmental laws in other parts of the world and high-volume, mass production all allow us to decide where on the price spectrum we want to purchase. The choice always has been, and hopefully will remain, a highly personal one.

While all of us here at Fodera applaud this range of choice, we hope that a certain segment of the playing population will always value the differences that our approach brings to the bass community. We genuinely, deeply and passionately love what we do and the opportunity to create art that allows others to create art as well is a virtuous circle that we never get tired of being a part of.

But in the end, I was fortunate enough to study business at a very fine school (UNC-Chapel Hill) and I can assure you with 100% certainty that our pricing is not arbitrary, our margins are not very large and if people desire instruments that are made the way we make them, our prices are as low as they can be while still having it make sense to do what we do.

I hope that all of this makes sense.

Kindest regards,

Jason

Hi Jason,

Serious question here, not intended to be snarky and rude. Does Fodera have actually valid data proving that an exotic wood such as, say bubinga, is better than a less expensive wood like agathis? I mean researched in a controlled manner, not just based on 'years of experience'.

Before anybody says it, no I haven't played a Fodera but I have no doubt the people there do make a fantastic bass with very high quality materials. I'm just wondering if the solid wooden body actually can be shown to change a sound based on actual research and not anecdote. So far I haven't seen or heard of anything that would not be dismissed from any scientific journal as invalid.

 

[Jim Nazium]

"You’ve found the market price when buyers complain but still pay" - Paul Graham

 

[CinnamicAcid]

Hi Jason,
I'm just wondering if the solid wooden body actually can be shown to change a sound based on actual research and not anecdote. So far I haven't seen or heard of anything that would not be dismissed from any scientific journal as invalid.

Research on the subject is so sparse, and it's mainly for acoustic, but I thought I'd share anyways. Both studies I've found seems to say wood is not a significant factor in tone.

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[spade2you]

The OP is becoming quite the rabble rouser. How is this newbie able to get such a reaction to his time honored topics?

Maybe next week he can educate us on why playing above the 5th fret is a bad thing.

 

[lancimouspitt]

If someone wants to play a 5,000 dollar bass I say more power to them. I'm certainly not going to question their choice in instruments.
For me personally, just for a bass (excluding anything amp or pedal wise) I'm not going to spend more than 1200.
That's just me though.
Some players will probably never play anything worth more than 400 or 500 and think i'm as crazy as the person paying 5,000 for their instrument.

There are great instruments in all price ranges.

 

[pravus]

Reading Is Fundamental. Please re-read my post WITHOUT EMOTION and try again. NOWHERE do I state that I, "have an opinion on correct price should be".

Please re-read my post without assaulting my intelligence and ability to communicate. Every time you buy something you are expressing your OPINION on the correct price. So yes, in your head for everything in the world that has value and price, you have an opinion if you are willing to comment on whether or not that price is "over" or "under" your opinion. That's prices in the abstract. All prices for all things. Ever.

 

[Double E]

Probably a misplaced sense of superiority as if time spent on a message board somehow changes the validity of one's opinions.

It's not that, my point is that the topics he is bringing up have all been beat to death...of course he doesn't know this 'cause he's a newbie. However, he is articulate and has a way of bringing out the ire of many posters who would usually just say "do a search" and scroll by. I give him credit and I believe his opinions are valid they just don't warrant the amount of arguing that has ensued.

 

[MatronMother]

No I don't feel like they are arbitrarily priced. Any successful business has thought out the cost of development and production of a product, market value, as well as a companies sustainability, marking, administration etc. To assume that this is arbitrary is simply wrong.

I cannot comment about what others like to play or about instruments I have not. I will say I like Rickenbackers for the feel and the Peavey T-40 because it is a scalpel of tone. I have reached this point because I have played lots of different basses in 25 years. And the 2 basses I prefer are exponentially different instruments. If they cost $200 or $6000 is arbitrary because these are what I like to play.

 

[dtsamples]

Brian Barrett is a great builder. I've owned 3 of his basses. From what I understand, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, he makes the necks but buys the bodies. His more exotic necks and tops will cost you closer to $5000 new.

 

[Lowness]

New territory - good to see.

 

[Double E]

Hi Jason,

Serious question here, not intended to be snarky and rude. Does Fodera have actually valid data proving that an exotic wood such as, say bubinga, is better than a less expensive wood like agathis? I mean researched in a controlled manner, not just based on 'years of experience'.

Before anybody says it, no I haven't played a Fodera but I have no doubt the people there do make a fantastic bass with very high quality materials. I'm just wondering if the solid wooden body actually can be shown to change a sound based on actual research and not anecdote. So far I haven't seen or heard of anything that would not be dismissed from any scientific journal as invalid.

This is a totally loaded question and does not deserve an answer.

If you want to read about the debates regarding tone wood, it has been covered to death on this board and elsewhere...yep I am telling you to "do a search"...

 

[red_rhino]

I guess if you're rich it doesn't matter. It just kinda boggles my mind when I see someone buy a $6000 bass and then a month later they list it on the classifieds for less than half the price.

In all my time on Talkbass I have yet to see anyone move an expensive instrument at such a discount. You are simply overstating here.

I have bought a $6K bass, which I then returned to the dealer because it just wasn't the right instrument for me. Price has nothing to do with a given instrument being a fit for given player, or in the event that it isn't a fit, somehow imply that the instrument is unworthy of the price.

Oh, and rich people generally want value for their $$ as much as people of lesser means. Just because someone can afford to spend more, doesn't mean they don't care. You are making assumptions and repeating / perpetuating stereotypes made in the past by every other OP who's posted a "I just don't understand why expensive basses are expensive" type thread.

-Alan

 

[bikeplate]

It's not an exact science. It's economics. Take a course at your local community college. It goes for every product available

 

[Afc70]

Why do people buy Ferrari's ?
Because they can. It's funny, I think most people complaining about boutique bass pricing can't afford one in the first place

 

[PWRL]

I build custom expensive things for a living (stained glass), and because of that, I do not believe that expensive instruments, at least the majority, are arbitrarily priced. Firstly, custom work is labor-intensive and finer materials can be quite pricey, not to mention hard to work with and hard on tools. There is the cost of paying skilled labor and the cost of being competitive in general. At least where I work, the profit margins after all the expenses, including just being able to keep the lights on during slow times, are slimmer than people think. I know a fantastic custom luthier, and although he sells guitars to rock stars for lots of money, his profit margin is still so low, that he can't even afford to play his own guitars.
Even things like Ritters and those Fender Custom Shop Precision relics that show up on Amazon for $8000 are priced like that for good reasons. I wouldn't pay that much money for an instrument, myself, but that's not to say they aren't worth it. How many gold-plated basses with diamond fret markers are there? What does it take to create a relic 59 Precision which is virtually indistinguishable from the real thing? One may not feel the prices are worth it, but they certainly are not arbitrary, at least as I understand it. As it's been said, it's still a simple matter of economics. They're priced to sell to a target market.