Anyone else feel like expensive basses are arbitrarily priced?

[MobileHolmes]

You'd be suprised at the amount of misinformation that is passed on that has people believing that the top woods enhance the tone. I've actually witnessed people state that the walnut top and back on a Smith give it a deeper and darker tone (when it has a maple core). They see walnut and they associate it with those properties.
FF

Well, walnut is darker in color than maple

 

[MrLenny1]

I had a bass built. $2100.oo
It was hand made, one guy built the whole bass.
No machines, just a lot of man hours.
He built exactly what I wanted.
Another builder wanted $4000.00 for a similar build.
Name and market recognition go a long way on pricing I think.

 

[spade2you]

You'd be suprised at the amount of misinformation that is passed on that has people believing that the top woods enhance the tone. I've actually witnessed people state that the walnut top and back on a Smith give it a deeper and darker tone (when it has a maple core). They see walnut and they associate it with those properties.
FF

I can see how these associations happen.

I recently picked up a Taylor 12 fret acoustic (body joins at the 12th fret, moving the bridge back). Between the 12 fret construction, non-cutaway, bracing, maple neck, ebony fretboard, spruce top, figured walnut back/sides, and Elixer strings it sounds good. I think I like walnut as an acoustic guitar back/side. Would I like it on a bigger body? No clue.

 

[Kirk Bryant]

Anybody else think cars are arbitrarily priced, I mean it's just a car?..........hummmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[Not yet]

Can't speak for anyone else or care to join the tailchasing

In response to the initial question which to me is valid if they don't have ready access to premium instruments (I'm lucky w Bass San Diego 10 minutes away).
After playing 45 years w solid Fenders etc and battling thru corporate BS to keep my job and actually get promoted I ponied up for an Alleva Coppolo. Tried the other boutique brands, but Fodera didn't do it for me or Sadowsky. Both fine examples of the best of the best for those who enjoy the sound and feel

However the LG5 just screamed to come home. Everyday appreciate the ridiculous quality of sound and ease of playability. It's simply another universe from the Ps and musicmans I have. And a I even have an outstanding Squire CV played at serious venues that still isn't even close. There is definitely a difference that is a direct result of the builder experience and design goal.

To be fair, it ain't perfect, couple things here and there and pricing does at times seem to vary for similar models. Maybe the paint a little different or its simply a marketing exercise

Simply don't care. This is an incredible instrument for a price that reflects the care and expertise that went into it.

 

[josiah goldfish]

Why shouldn't luthiers charge what they want? They need to earn a living the same as anyone else. And if they get to the point that they can charge a bit more and earn more money, why not? What's the difference between that and any other job?

To me, lutherie is kind of like art. People pay thousands for something that others wouldn't pay £100 for, others pay £100 for something many would buy for thousands. The artist has to earn a living, and it's solely their decision as to how much they charge for their work.

 

[bolophonic]

The most expensive bass I have ever played was some old Ric that was like, $1000. I've never even seen a Fodera. I couldn't tell you what one looks like.

 

[Double E]

Its completely possible to do a study like this. We have incredible technology for measuring things these days, and the philosophy of science, statistics, and our models for the physical world are advanced enough to figure this out. Basses aren't in high energy environments, working at quantum scale, or near black holes. We can model and measure what happens. There is an answer.

I think the main problem is there isn't so much INTEREST in doing so. What practical purpose is there for figuring out whether tone woods affect tone on electric instruments? Only a very small fraction of anyone even cares about it, and it doesn't really fix any problem we are facing (global warming, or whatever) or advance some science that makes life better for anyone.

From what I've read I think that for solid instruments, the species of wood has almost no perceptible effect on the sound. More often than not it's some perceived effect that is tied to confirmation bias. Your mind plays tricks on you all the time which is why we have the philosophy of science, logic, and scientific instruments to measure things around to check ourselves.

I do think that heavy/dense vs. lighter woods may change the sound SLIGHTLY. However the vast majority of people won't detect it without confirmation bias coming into play, and your audience (even the player) doesn't know the difference in the mix. There are so many other factors in a bass, like how it's constructed with the bridge and other parts involved.

For example, my G&L basses with the saddle lock bridge have incredible resonance in the wood. Maybe tone wood makes a difference there because of that? I don't know. Many other basses you don't feel the vibration in the body quite the same way, so it's hard for me to believe there is some strong interaction between the strings and wood going on that is changing the tone.

With acoustic instruments I'd hypothesize wood would absolutely have some more effect simply because you are amplifying your sound USING the wood. With electric instruments the pickups are doing that, you don't need wood.

There will always be someone who will find some way to discredit even the most thourogh study.

 

[bolophonic]

Why shouldn't luthiers charge what they want? They need to earn a living the same as anyone else. And if they get to the point that they can charge a bit more and earn more money, why not? What's the difference between that and any other job?

To me, lutherie is kind of like art. People pay thousands for something that others wouldn't pay £100 for, others pay £100 for something many would buy for thousands. The artist has to earn a living, and it's solely their decision as to how much they charge for their work.

Agreed. I worked as a skilled laborer as a maker of heirloom quality custom luxury goods. My earnings were inextricably tied to the prices set by the shop, which reflected a.... shall we say, "antiquated" view of the world. But the shop had the clients, not me. If an artisan can build a client base that is willing to pay, I think the more money they can charge, the better. I am a custom fabricator in a different industry now and I have spent years getting to the point of being able to negotiate my own prices. I believe that an artisan that spends the time to gather the necessary skills to rise to the top of their industry is entitled to the same.

 

[Antisyzygy]

There will always be someone who will find some way to discredit even the most thourogh study.

That is true, however many of those people don't know what they're talking about. People don't like being wrong so they resort to fallacies like raising the bar to help with the cognitive dissonance that makes them uncomfortable.

The one that gets me the most is the "more samples" argument. Even if you have enough it's never enough for some people. It's actually a bad thing to have too many samples sometimes. Otherwise, you can pretty much do some statistical analysis to figure out you have more than enough to detect the effect your trying to detect. Also having more samples tends to follow the law of diminishing returns.

 

[agfrag]

Just can't help myself, but I want to make this comment in reference to the high costs of some instruments.

Go try it yourself. I mean go and try to make an instrument that would in general, when you are done, be considered a "high end" instrument.

I think you'll find that it takes a huge amount of experience and time to get to the point where a person or persons can reliably turn out consistently... a high end instrument. Yes indeed streamlined production setups can turn out awesome instruments at low prices. But not overnight, and not without the infrastructure to do it. Expensive infrastructure which takes years and years to acquire and perfect. You don't usually get sub $300 instruments from someone overseas who owns a jigsaw and a set of screwdrivers, you get them from a company who has deep experience and expert, often industry leading, production efficiency capability. And who has instantiated this knowledge and infrastructure in the most cost efficient location."Value Engineering" is a term which describes it well.

For an individual to compete, and surpass in most cases, the product quality of the industry leaders, it takes some guts, thousands of hours of trial and error, and a brilliant mindset, and all that, to be able to craft something as tricky as a musical instrument. For gosh sakes, can you imagine the list of factors which affect the tone of the vibrating string between it and the output jack? And these individuals somehow do surpass the mega makers. I too have played a gazillion basses over the past 45 years, and in general, yes, the boutique stuff is awesome stuff, and it is so due to the fine materials and expert luthiery (is that a word?) which goes into the instrument.

I hate to part with my dollars, but I've only come across one sub $300 instrument that I wish I'd kept (and I've been trying to contact the last owner almost immediately after I sold it!). I do own some fairly good stuff, and have built some fair stuff, and am building still for my own devious usage. And as someone who has tried to do it myself, I recognize how damn difficult it is... and I applaud those with the skills who can make these instruments, and I don't begrudge them the dollars.

I just play them... and when I do it takes me away from here to a place where I'm happy, and all my troubles fade away...

 

[Old Blastard]

I am happy with the quality of my custom guitars. I am happy with the sound. I am happy with the price. I do not mind a man making a profit. I do not like getting ripped off. I paid and am paying more than fair prices for my handcrafted instruments and I actually believe I'm getting a bargain. I also compared prices to the big boutique brands. I wasn't ready to pay that. That's the beauty of free enterprise.

 

[Menorahman]

The OP is becoming quite the rabble rouser. How is this newbie able to get such a reaction to his time honored topics?

It's a gift.

 

[peterpalmieri]

Hah, very good. My legitimate question isn't worth answering because it points out that this big concept of expensive tonewood is very likely just a ploy at marketing. That would make a boutique maker look bad because they emphasise the exoticness of the wood improving the quality of your instrument. I'm simply asking if Fodera has indeed discovered proof that can be validated. Maybe they have because they have created very high end basses for years so it would be in their interest to shut people like me up.

People point out that a lot of research hasn't been done but what has points to wood not being important to sound. Again, I harp on this because even the Fodera rep here was pointing out how expensive tone woods are. People are willing to believe, in absence of proof, that wood is so very important. A finite resource which drives up the production cost handily.

Again, if Fodera or another maker can prove me wrong, I'm totally willing to accept it.

I own a Fodera that has a solid alder body, dovetail joint and a maple neck. With an ebony fingerboard. Pretty standard woods used in lots of basses. Fodera is happy to make a bass like that.

i don't know of a scientific experiment that proves a plywood double bass sounds better then a fully carved one but you generally don't see plywood DBs in the big philharmics. I also know in a recording of a Wagner symphony I could never tell if the bass section was playing Chinese plywood basses or 200 year old European instruments.

The point is if it doesn't matter to you the player then it doesn't matter but if it does it does.

 

[Jack Butler]

Where as artisinal cheese makers love rubes like you because someone has to pay for their new jacuzzi. Keep thinking your African hyenawood with a thirty fifth of an inch of bubinga makes enough of a difference to justify spending into the five digit range.

I should add, a 1000 dollar bass is better than a 200 dollar bass but there's a point of diminished returns between a few grand and 10k. After upgrading pickups, hardware and electronics and getting a better set up, it's all airy-fairy subjective stuff like whether Dan Lakin or Mike Lull makes a better bass. People believe all kinds of nonsense but it doesn't make it real.

That works for you, so that's definite how you should roll. That doesn't mean everyone agrees. I actually gig with a Kramer I got for $100 and a squier classic vibe. They are reliable and I often get compliments on my tone. And I sub for a guy that has a collection of Zon basses worth more than my BMW. He seems to be enjoying himself so who am I to say he's wrong. It's that way with anything really though, I mean does a lambroghini have 4 or 5 times the performance of a corvette?

 

[Rebop]

i don't know of a scientific experiment that proves a plywood double bass sounds better then a fully carved one but you generally don't see plywood DBs in the big philharmics.

This is as close to scientific as you'll get. Classical players generally audition "blind" behind a screen. Plywood upright basses, to my knowledge, have never won a spot with any decent orchestra. EDIT: Still doesn't mean "better", but perhaps just not right for the job.

 

[Angus]

Where as artisinal cheese makers love rubes like you because someone has to pay for their new jacuzzi. Keep thinking your African hyenawood with a thirty fifth of an inch of bubinga makes enough of a difference to justify spending into the five digit range.

With quotes like these, I can only imagine you must be a joy to be around. What about someone enjoying a Fodera is so bothersome to you? It's good for them- it doesn't have to be right for you. It really does not affect you at all (or, well, it shouldn't).

It's standoff-ish BS like this that really sours the internet. Anonymity really grants people too much freedom to "keep it real."

 

[UK Philip]

I do wonder about the difference between MIA and MIM pricing, especially now I know that the two respective factories are (if I'm not mistaken) less than a 1.5 hour drive away from each other. Now, I see the upgrades between say, MIM P and an MIA P, but sometimes I play £450 MIMs that sound and feel just as nice as the £1250 MIAs. It makes me wonder about how much of a crossover in quality there is between the two factories in relation to the widely differing pricetags.

Do you think that some unlucky people get MIAs that are more like MIMs, and other lucky guys are paying 3x less for a better bass?

 

[MobileHolmes]

I do wonder about the difference between MIA and MIM pricing, especially now that I know that the two respective factories are (if I'm not mistaken) less than a 1.5 hour drive away from each other. Now, I see the upgrades between say, MIM P and an MIA P, but sometimes I play £450 MIMs that sound and feel just as nice as the £1250 MIAs. It makes me wonder about how much of a crossover in quality there is between the two factories in relation to the widely differing pricetags.

Do you think that some unlucky people get MIAs that are more like MIMs, and other lucky guys are paying 3x less for a better bass?

I was looking for a tele years ago, at a really good mom and pop. I was there middle of the day on a weekday, and the salesguy was bored, so he helped me do a blind tastign, just sticking guitars in my hand. I had specified MIA, but he threw in an MIM just for the heck of it. I didn't like it quite as much as any the MIAs, BUT, until I looked at the headstock, I had no reason to believe it wasn't an MIA. It was probably close enough for most purposes, and half the price. That said, some of the MIM specs are pretty different from the MIA. Whether it matters to you or not is personal, but it isn't like the exact same instrument just made in a different factory.

 

[Belka]

It's really a question of priorities. Once you've paid for housing, food, warmth, and education you should us the rest of your hard earned money to enjoy your life. I have a 10,000 plus Fodera on order because nothing gives me pleasure like playing a good bass. Is it 9,500 better than my 1980s Fender jazz bass special that I also love? Well, no, but to me it's still worth the money. I drive a Mazda 3 with a 1.5 liter engine. I could afford a Mercedes with a 3 litre engine which would be a much better car, but the extra expense involved is not worth it to me; I like driving, but I'm not enough of an enthusiast to justify the extra dollars for this. While for others, probably even some of this this thread, it would be. With the money I save on car expenses, petrol and insurance, I can justify the Fodera.
Two more things: money does not bring happiness and in a few decades we'll all be dead, so use it wisely.
And, I believe that in decades to come (and yes, this does contradict the point above somewhat), the work of of Fodera and Sadowsky and Ken Smith and Michael Tobias will be held in very high regard just like vintage Fenders and D'Acquisto and even Stradivarius and if my grandchildren or great grandchildren aren't bitten by the bass bug, it may at least put them through university.