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Anyone else out there -Not- a Huge Jaco Fan??
- Thread starter sgtdemeo
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i'll just say i'm not a fan... i listened to a portrait of tracy and i thought he was just screwing off, but about a minute in i realized that was the actual song. there's no flow, no consistency in most of his solo work, and doesn't keep to a groove which is why i can't get into him... now i will vouch for flea here because maybe he is or isn't as good as jaco (and flea once wanted to be like him) but flea sure knows how to lay down a catchy and creative groove
my 2 pennies
my 2 pennies
i never said you had to grow into jaco(OP), but you admitted not getting jaco's music...so naturally you are going to gravitate towards stuff you personally do get and enjoy musically.
when i said les and flea are just rock players thats no knock on them, they are two of the better players in rock, no doubt about it, and im a big fan of both of them. but it is true, they are ROCK players. jazz is a completely different genre and involves a completely different mentality regarding composition and execution of musical ideas. not to say one is better than the other, as you may have already noticed, i dislike using such words when comparing art.
my main point is that the OP approached his flaming of Jaco in a pretty poor way, and continues to do so in his more recent posts in the thread. this quote sums up what i am responding to mostly...
"In comparing jaco, i was just trying to make the point that to me, those other players I mentioned are more enjoyable, and in my opinion, based on the groove they play, or their energetic playing style, better players."
its all your opinion, yay, so put it in your profile "i hate jaco". and next time, do a search.
when i said les and flea are just rock players thats no knock on them, they are two of the better players in rock, no doubt about it, and im a big fan of both of them. but it is true, they are ROCK players. jazz is a completely different genre and involves a completely different mentality regarding composition and execution of musical ideas. not to say one is better than the other, as you may have already noticed, i dislike using such words when comparing art.
my main point is that the OP approached his flaming of Jaco in a pretty poor way, and continues to do so in his more recent posts in the thread. this quote sums up what i am responding to mostly...
"In comparing jaco, i was just trying to make the point that to me, those other players I mentioned are more enjoyable, and in my opinion, based on the groove they play, or their energetic playing style, better players."
its all your opinion, yay, so put it in your profile "i hate jaco". and next time, do a search.
wow, i cant believe the amount of people saying jaco cant groove.
i guess wayne shorter and miles davis didnt know how to solo either....
i guess wayne shorter and miles davis didnt know how to solo either....
I think that the main thing is that we can learn something from each other. Jaco himself said on a video that was done on him that he himself "is just trying to imitate the cats that can before him." (such as Jerry Jermott). So it should really should not about putting down one great player over another.
I like Jaco and I also enjoy the heck out of listening/watching Flea play as well.
I like Jaco and I also enjoy the heck out of listening/watching Flea play as well.
oh he's not bad at grooving in some stuff, but his solo work is yeah...
all in all he is an awesome player... be me myself, i mean, i just can't get into it. i mean coming from a hard rock background i'd obviously not lean that way anyway.
i, in any way shape or form, am not trying to attack anyone... the thread starter just wanted opinions and i gave mine
all in all he is an awesome player... be me myself, i mean, i just can't get into it. i mean coming from a hard rock background i'd obviously not lean that way anyway.
i, in any way shape or form, am not trying to attack anyone... the thread starter just wanted opinions and i gave mine
his soloing is more like horn playing, so i guess you would have to be into jazz to really like it.
i find his phrasing and voice as a soloist to be exceptional. again, just depends on your personal tastes in music.
i find his phrasing and voice as a soloist to be exceptional. again, just depends on your personal tastes in music.
well technically you can't argue that anyone is "better" than anyone within a reasonable amount. I would have pointed out that Flea was a large fan of Jaco's music as is Victor Wooten (and probably Les as well). So whether they have "passed him up" or not, he was still an influence to them and they wouldn't play the way they play today had it not been for him.
Now am I saying he was a phenomenal end-all amazing bassist? Idk, but after only playing for about 3 or 4 years there is probably a LOT that I am not picking up on that Jaco does. I respect the guy, but I don't jam out to his music in the car or anything =/
Ok, I tried not to but this had to be said...
I'm gonna try and stay as neutral as possible here, whilst staying true to my opinion. When I made bass my main instrument 4 years ago (I took up BOTH guitar and bass at the same time, 10 years ago, so am not one of the despised "converts") I decided I should check out some of Jaco's work. To ease myself in i bought a "best of" compilation, which I found extremely hard to "get". This is mainly due to my musically rock-heavy background. For Example, one of my favourite bands are The Vines, pretty average playing all round but beautifully crafted, very well thought out songs with LOTS of awesome, intricate vocal harmonies layered into their songs.
On the advice of the Jaco fans, i just youtubed "continuum" and to be honest, I wasnt that impressed. A perfectly reasonable explanation for this is that i'm not a jazz fan and to my ears it is unlistenable, or i may not be picking up on certain techniques he is using. I admit right now, I am no position to judge the guys technique or talent, and thats not what i'm trying to do here. I have what could be pigeon-holed as "rock technique", meaning I use a pick, use mostly blues-based runs and fills when neccessary but mostly I kick back with the drummer keeping the song solid and grooving.
BUT, instantly more impressive to me is an accessible song, and that is the point.
A lot of people forget that music isn't about technique, skill and the need to impress other muso's. Solely on the basis of technique, Joe Satriani slay's George Harrison, but George Harrison was in the f***ing Beatles!!!. Is Jaco good, maybe......is he a musicians musician, certainly......is he the kind of composer who can touch you in the same way the beatles can.....No
Here's to an open debate, not just me "not getting it" cuz im a rock guy...
I'm gonna try and stay as neutral as possible here, whilst staying true to my opinion. When I made bass my main instrument 4 years ago (I took up BOTH guitar and bass at the same time, 10 years ago, so am not one of the despised "converts") I decided I should check out some of Jaco's work. To ease myself in i bought a "best of" compilation, which I found extremely hard to "get". This is mainly due to my musically rock-heavy background. For Example, one of my favourite bands are The Vines, pretty average playing all round but beautifully crafted, very well thought out songs with LOTS of awesome, intricate vocal harmonies layered into their songs.
On the advice of the Jaco fans, i just youtubed "continuum" and to be honest, I wasnt that impressed. A perfectly reasonable explanation for this is that i'm not a jazz fan and to my ears it is unlistenable, or i may not be picking up on certain techniques he is using. I admit right now, I am no position to judge the guys technique or talent, and thats not what i'm trying to do here. I have what could be pigeon-holed as "rock technique", meaning I use a pick, use mostly blues-based runs and fills when neccessary but mostly I kick back with the drummer keeping the song solid and grooving.
BUT, instantly more impressive to me is an accessible song, and that is the point.
A lot of people forget that music isn't about technique, skill and the need to impress other muso's. Solely on the basis of technique, Joe Satriani slay's George Harrison, but George Harrison was in the f***ing Beatles!!!. Is Jaco good, maybe......is he a musicians musician, certainly......is he the kind of composer who can touch you in the same way the beatles can.....No
Here's to an open debate, not just me "not getting it" cuz im a rock guy...
Getting into a new genre, takes work for some...at least for me, it did.
Example: John Coltrane's Ascension took 20+ years for me to "like" (not "get"...as I will never "get" it).
Listening is a skill that takes practice & constant tweaking. Some stuff you'll like from jump street...probably because it's "relatable" to YOU. A person reared on Latin/Reggae...may find your Rock-heavy stuff "unlistenable".
I don't know exactly what's out there on youtube; I do know a lotta garbage is out there...the thing with Jaco is this:
He's career was like a meteor...it burned white hot & then crashed. Think about it: He really only had 2 non-live solo albums.
The fact: More "trash" is out there vs. the truly great for him.
Again, Jaco is a groove monster. It may be a style of groovin' that's different for you...some have mentioned Little Beaver's "I Can Dig It, Baby". Perfect example. Or "Come On, Come Over".
There's also a cover of "I Want To To Take You Higher" from the Portrait Of Jaco box set...Jaco locks in heavy for about 7 minutes, IIRC.
I suggest you try a Blues tune like Joni Mitchell's "The Dry Cleaner From Des Moines". It's a 12-bar Blues, nothing more.
It can be argued that Harrison wasn't even the 'best' guitarist in The Beatles.
Technique is a means...I agree that "technique in & by itself" can be very sterile & leave one cold. But, when combined with the musician's soul?
Anyway, I'm a huge fan of both The Beatles & Jaco...Jaco's version of "Blackbird" is great.
BTW, some of Jaco's tunes (e.g. "Three Views Of A Secret") are in the Jazz Real Book...where they belong.
He's gone but he ain't goin' anywhere for a long while.
Yup there is a regular "I don't get Jaco " thread - at least every month on TB!
Given that TB has been here 10 years - that's more than 120 threads and they always generate hundreds and hundreds of posts - I reckon that we might be coming up for a million posts about this, by now!!
This may sound stupid but I didn't like Jaco when I first listened. I bought the Jaco Pastorius Big Band CD with other people playing and loved it. Then I really got into it. IMHO Jaco's tone may be what turn a lot of people off. Marcus Miller playing Teen Town is incredible, it made me appreciate the Weather Report version which I hated at first.
That's a ridiculous thing to say. Jeff Berlin doesn't have the voice that jaco had, i can hear one note and tell you it's jaco, jeff berlin was just a bop player on the electric bass. Besides Jaco had serious soul and you could hear it in his music, Jeff Berlin is miles behind where jaco was.
If you wanna hear the most solid grooving, while simultaneously doing things that none of us could even imagine doing on the bass, check out the live version of Teen Town off of the Weather Report record 8:30. If that doesn't blow your mind something is seriously wrong with you.
I like your use of the word "Soul", IMO the most important thing in music along with songcraft. I just don't hear the "groove" from what i've heard.
For an understanding of what I consider groove, listen to "Rocket Queen" by G'n'R, everything about the bass and drums is real simple, yet tight and effective. It's a kinda loose groove that just screams sexy rock n roll (although i am biased in that direction of course!). Groove to me is less about whats being played just on the bass but the feel that is created WITHIN a rythm section, groove doesnt exist without a decent drummer!.
Bear with me here, but the one thing I havent seen from the, admittedly limited, footage of Jaco i've watched is any great displays of speed, something that a lot of people claim to make someone a better bassist. I'm not one of those people (i'd rather listen to Paul McCartney than Billy Sheehan) but you obviously have to be a better bassist than I to get into the jazz/Jaco scene.
I just resent the fact that some Jaco fans treat it like an elite club (Not you Jim, I should add) that lesser (ie rock/punk/pop/anything thats not jazz) bassist's aren't allowed into.
For an understanding of what I consider groove, listen to "Rocket Queen" by G'n'R, everything about the bass and drums is real simple, yet tight and effective. It's a kinda loose groove that just screams sexy rock n roll (although i am biased in that direction of course!). Groove to me is less about whats being played just on the bass but the feel that is created WITHIN a rythm section, groove doesnt exist without a decent drummer!.
Bear with me here, but the one thing I havent seen from the, admittedly limited, footage of Jaco i've watched is any great displays of speed, something that a lot of people claim to make someone a better bassist. I'm not one of those people (i'd rather listen to Paul McCartney than Billy Sheehan) but you obviously have to be a better bassist than I to get into the jazz/Jaco scene.
I just resent the fact that some Jaco fans treat it like an elite club (Not you Jim, I should add) that lesser (ie rock/punk/pop/anything thats not jazz) bassist's aren't allowed into.
Well Jazz does require some prior knowledge to understand what's going on - to realise that players are not just picking notes at random - there are things gong on that require effort on the part of the listener - that's just the nature of it!
Of course you can listen without this - but you will always be missing the point of what the artist is trying to do!
In the 60s and 70s audiences understood what Jazz was about, the references players were making and where they were coming from - e.g. on standards.
People listening for the first time now are missing all that "context" and if you want to get the most out of it, then you will have to do some work...?
Of course you can listen without this - but you will always be missing the point of what the artist is trying to do!
In the 60s and 70s audiences understood what Jazz was about, the references players were making and where they were coming from - e.g. on standards.
People listening for the first time now are missing all that "context" and if you want to get the most out of it, then you will have to do some work...?
i think what it comes down to is that if you're a bassist who's into playing changes and improvising then you'll probably like jaco, if that's not your thing then you probably wont. i have a feeling that the people who say that they dont like jaco would also say the same thing about scott lafaro and late trane. if that kind of improvising isnt your thing then there's really no reason to listen to it. the fact is, clarence clemens is far more widely known among the general public than trane because his music is more accessable to someone who doesnt make a career of studying improvised music. just dig that solo on born to run. take a poll with your friends between that and sun ship and see who they like better....
I spoke poorly once of ONE bit of a Jaco solo I saw on here. Even though I acknowledged that I knew it was not a full representation of the man's work, and that he was an out-of-this-world musician, I still got crucified (internet style that is) anyway. Jazz guys will always tell rock guys that they don't get it, which is like hip hop guys telling rock guys they don't get it.
I have actually been getting into some jazz lately (more listening than playing), and basically listen to the stuff that I like. I have no prior knowledge, or formal training as a musician - jazz or otherwise. For the most part I think people either like what they hear, or they don't. To tell someone who doesn't like a particular that they don't get the context of what the piece is all about just sounds elitist to me (no offense to anyone here). Maybe they just don't like the way the music sounds, right? I guess I just tend to look at things a little more objectively than some.
If someone told me that they didn't like my favorite bass player (and they have), I would say that's cool. Everybody has thier own preferences. You don't need to understand the basis and theory behind any piece of music to like what you hear, or appreciate the playing. If that was the case, there would be a lot less of us (musicians/fans) around debating this stuff.
I have actually been getting into some jazz lately (more listening than playing), and basically listen to the stuff that I like. I have no prior knowledge, or formal training as a musician - jazz or otherwise. For the most part I think people either like what they hear, or they don't. To tell someone who doesn't like a particular that they don't get the context of what the piece is all about just sounds elitist to me (no offense to anyone here). Maybe they just don't like the way the music sounds, right? I guess I just tend to look at things a little more objectively than some.
If someone told me that they didn't like my favorite bass player (and they have), I would say that's cool. Everybody has thier own preferences. You don't need to understand the basis and theory behind any piece of music to like what you hear, or appreciate the playing. If that was the case, there would be a lot less of us (musicians/fans) around debating this stuff.
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