Double Bass Anyone read the latest "authorized" Ron Carter biography?

[Mark Perna]

We should, perhaps, take a step back and look at this attitude thing from another perspective.

Scott LaFaro was not an elder statesman of jazz. He was little more than a child with major skills, determination and imagination. I defy anyone to find a 22-25 year old with those attributes that isn't going to come off as arrogant sometimes. I defy you to find any serious 22-25 year WITHOUT those attributes that doesn't come off as arrogant sometimes. It is the nature of the 20 year to be arrogant.

Despite his prodigious abilities on the bass, there is absolutely no reason to expect him to be more developed socially than any other 20 something year old. That he would come off as arrogant to some shouldn't even be noteworthy.

He was one of the rare individuals in jazz that had incredible talent coupled with the discipline, intelligence and imagination to both hone his craft and invent new possibilities for his instrument. There haven't been many of those.

mark

 

[Bijoux]

We should, perhaps, take a step back and look at this attitude thing from another perspective.

Scott LaFaro was not an elder statesman of jazz. He was little more than a child with major skills, determination and imagination. I defy anyone to find a 22-25 year old with those attributes that isn't going to come off as arrogant sometimes. I defy you to find any serious 22-25 year WITHOUT those attributes that doesn't come off as arrogant sometimes. It is the nature of the 20 year to be arrogant.

Despite his prodigious abilities on the bass, there is absolutely no reason to expect him to be more developed socially than any other 20 something year old. That he would come off as arrogant to some shouldn't even be noteworthy.

He was one of the rare individuals in jazz that had incredible talent coupled with the discipline, intelligence and imagination to both hone his craft and invent new possibilities for his instrument. There haven't been many of those.

mark

+1000
I was gonna write something along those lines, but I figured I'd get burned and the thing would go on forever.
Even some of the most talent musicians are just human, and at some point in their careers they are just young and insecure.
I once asked an old friend about getting old and being a musician. And he told me, "it's great! the pressure is off! "

 

[Marcus Johnson]

Thanks, Mark, I was thinking that same thing, but you stated it perfectly. I was thinking back to my behavior when I was 20-something....... I'm just glad that there weren't vidcams everywhere in those days....

It takes awhile to learn how to be pono.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pono

 

[RBrownBass]

The sad joke is that it was childish to make the claim in the first place.

What I am saying is that Ron Carter is being childish in publishing drivel about being discriminated against and not getting an audition 50 years ago.

I don't have any problem with the fact that you tossed the book! None whatsoever, sorry for any misunderstanding.

aiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeee...
Not just a bit sensitive, are you?

Surely racism reared its ugly head several times during Carter's youth more than a half-century ago. It was a part of American life then and remains so (tho to a somewhat diminished degree) today.

Set aside for a moment the quality of the book and try to figure out why his mentioning it bothers you so. I can't for the life of me understand why you or anyone else would want anyone to ignore that big and that negative an event in his* early life. If you had had problems with the writing and the writing alone, or you thought he was lying or wasn't good enough for the audition, you'd probably have said one or more of those things specifically. But you didn't, so the conclusion is that you simply "didn't want to hear about it".

* and our lives. If he'd been laboring in the bass section of some orchestra, he'd never have been able to help create some of the great music we've all heard from him.

 

[Treyzer]

Thanks, Mark, I was thinking that same thing, but you stated it perfectly. I was thinking back to my behavior when I was 20-something....... I'm just glad that there weren't vidcams everywhere in those days....

It takes awhile to learn how to be pono.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pono

Hey Brah, tell da boyz what pono mean eh?

Perfectly said Mark.

When I was in my very early twenties I played with Jose Feliciano. It was pretty cool to be 20 years old and travel the world, make a great living, stay in 5 star hotels have a fancy car ect. Was I arrogant? I didn't think so!

However, I became quite a bit more humble as I grew older and realized a lot more about life and music.

Not sure if this has anything to do with our discussion. In no way do I compare my self with Scott LaFaro. He is one of my heros and I will always be amazed at his immense level of talent.

 

[Nathan Parker]

We should, perhaps, take a step back and look at this attitude thing from another perspective.

Scott LaFaro was not an elder statesman of jazz. He was little more than a child with major skills, determination and imagination. I defy anyone to find a 22-25 year old with those attributes that isn't going to come off as arrogant sometimes. I defy you to find any serious 22-25 year WITHOUT those attributes that doesn't come off as arrogant sometimes. It is the nature of the 20 year to be arrogant.

Despite his prodigious abilities on the bass, there is absolutely no reason to expect him to be more developed socially than any other 20 something year old. That he would come off as arrogant to some shouldn't even be noteworthy.

He was one of the rare individuals in jazz that had incredible talent coupled with the discipline, intelligence and imagination to both hone his craft and invent new possibilities for his instrument. There haven't been many of those.

mark

Agreed. I would be pretty embarassed/ashamed if someone applied the same microscope to my life that has been applied to his. I guess that's one of the upsides to not being as good as he was.

 

[Marcus Johnson]

Was I arrogant? I didn't think so!

However, I became quite a bit more humble as I grew older and realized a lot more about life and music.

That's just it.... you can't possibly know that in your twenties. I sometimes cringe when I think about the way I was then. I asked a great friend about that once, and she said..."Are you kidding? You were the good one!" That made me feel a little better, but I STILL wouldn't want to watch the tapes....

 

[Paul Warburton]

All this about a book in a thread asking for feed-back on the Ron book.
If it stirs this much attention and passion from some people who haven't even read it yet, we can only imagine what will be said in a few weeks.

I CAN say it IS right on the money on the levels that I've witnessed. Bill Evans wasn't only a great player but a brilliant guy. That also has been well documented. He didn't talk "Scott" that much during our relationship, but when he did, his eyes lit up, he became very verbally centered and the only words that came to my mind were "love" and "respect".
You might as well throw "deep" in before the other two words.

 

[MR PC]

aiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeee...
Not just a bit sensitive, are you?

Well, just my opinion. Of course, Ron has every right to complain about the events of his life. As do you and I.

As a famous and highly respected artist, he has the means to document clearly the details of his career disapointments. I've never seen anything but vague complaints in print on his behalf.

I for one wish he would get serious and do it, because there would be much to learn. Of course if he has, I'd like to find out about it. So let me know.

BTW, FYI, my mothers side is primarily of African and Euro Gypsy blood. I've experienced firsthand a bit of that racism scenario you describe.

 

[RBrownBass]

As a famous and highly respected artist, he has the means to document clearly the details of his career disapointments. I've never seen anything but vague complaints in print on his behalf.

I for one wish he would get serious and do it, because there would be much to learn. Of course if he has, I'd like to find out about it. So let me know.

He asn't, AFAIK- I've looked in the past for something with more details, but never found it. If it's there, someone who posts here and has read the whole book will likely be glad to let you know.

 

[John Goldsby]

Thanks, Mark, I was thinking that same thing, but you stated it perfectly. I was thinking back to my behavior when I was 20-something....... I'm just glad that there weren't vidcams everywhere in those days....

It takes awhile to learn how to be pono.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pono

Thanks Treyzer and Marcus for clearing up what "pono" means . . . I learn something new every day.

 

[MR PC]

It takes awhile to learn how to be pono.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pono

Marcus, can descibe the meaning of "pono" in regards to this discussion of Scott LaFaro? The wiki page gives it a pretty broad range of meaning. It became slang in some Disney flick for example.

 

[Treyzer]

Thanks Treyzer and Marcus for clearing up what "pono" means . . . I learn something new every day.

Marcus and I live on different islands in the Hawaiian chain. Although we are part of America (and there are many here who are not overly happy with that fact), We are nothing like the contiguous 48. The food is different, the air is different. heck the people are different. We are a true polyglot culture. Some lava rocks out in the middle of the Pacific. Not only do we speak English as many of you know it, we also speak a language laced with many Hawaiian, Chinese, Japanese, Filipino, Portuguese and English words. This language originated on the plantations in the early 1900's. We call it pidgin. It is very expressive and very colorful and most of you would have no idea of what was being said unless you lived here awhile.

Tourists don't typically hear this language as it is a language that is commonly spoken among islanders. If you are mistaken for someone who lives in the islands or if you have lived here only a short while someone may say something to you in pidgin and expect an answer. When he or she sees the look of total bewilderment on your face (happened to me many times early on) he or she will revert to common usage English if they like you or are taking pity on you.

Like many words in Hawaiian and of course pidgin, there can be many meanings to the same word depending on the way it is said, the moment and the circumstances. Aloha can mean hello, good-bye, with love......just depends.

I don't want to put words in Marcus's mouth but for me he was speaking naturally and honestly, using a lyrical Hawaiian word to say that it takes awhile for ANY man to become what we might call self-aware, enlightened, humble, generous, forgiving...................... PONO, like Marcus said.

 

[MR PC]

I see, you have to be there in the moment to really understand it then, since life circumstances are infinitely different. That's a kind term I would choose to be very careful with. Thanks

 

[Marcus Johnson]

As Trey says, often there's a Hawaiian word that fits the bill better than anything in English... sometimes there isn't one concise definition for the word, but more of a broad concept. This isn't unique to the Hawaiian language (Japanese springs to mind as well).

And sometimes those words just seamlessly pop into the everyday conversation of someone who's lived here as long as Trey and I have. I often end up doing that on mainland trips without even thinking about it, forgetting where I am, and then trying to explain the definition afterwards. In this case, I could have probably just said "righteous", but for me, "Pono" goes beyond being a single word, and into the realm of a whole guiding concept. Not bad for four letters!

"Aloha" is misunderstood by most visitors, since it's been widely misrepresented as merely meaning "hello" and "goodbye". It is a guiding principal, a desirable state of being, and something to be practiced on a daily basis. It's hard to describe, but hopefully you get it once you're here.

As it regards my original usage in relation to the youthful Scott LaFaro, I was merely projecting how I was in my early twenties, and thinking that, in retrospect, I would not have wanted society's microscope pointed at me during much of that time. Like many people at that age, I was quite self-centered, and hadn't yet figured out the whole matrix of interacting with the human race very gracefully. I'm still working on it! I'll say one thing; getting married and raising a couple of kids can really do wonders for one's ability to stop constantly contemplating one's own navel, and getting outside one's self. Pono!

 

[Mark Perna]

]Like many people at that age, I was quite self-centered, and hadn't yet figured out the whole matrix of interacting with the human race very gracefully.

Beautifully phrased. I wish I had written it.

mark

 

[Ron Lacey]

I'll say one thing; getting married and raising a couple of kids can really do wonders for one's ability to stop constantly contemplating one's own navel, and getting outside one's self. Pono!

Pono, indeed!

Thanks for the new word. I'll look at aloha differently from now on too. Peace

 

[MR PC]

As it regards my original usage in relation to the youthful Scott LaFaro, I was merely projecting how I was in my early twenties, and thinking that, in retrospect, I would not have wanted society's microscope pointed at me during much of that time. Like many people at that age, I was quite self-centered, and hadn't yet figured out the whole matrix of interacting with the human race very gracefully. I'm still working on it! I'll say one thing; getting married and raising a couple of kids can really do wonders for one's ability to stop constantly contemplating one's own navel, and getting outside one's self. Pono!

Marcus, as we grow older, our navel gets bigger...... and gets closer to our face.

To be truly "Pono" then, would to not want to study the lives of others then? Why should we want society's microscope to be off ourselves when we so often apply it's power to others by studying their history, warts and all?

My understanding of the term is pretty limited. But I must say that looking at all of the internet claims by commercial interests using the term leads me to associate it more as a marketing tool for cultural heritage than a term describing individual human development.

If it rings your bell though, that's cool! Maybe I'll understand the term one day as it's progenitor(s) did.

 

[Marcus Johnson]

My understanding of the term is pretty limited. But I must say that looking at all of the internet claims by commercial interests using the term leads me to associate it more as a marketing tool for cultural heritage than a term describing individual human development.

My understanding of the term "pono" stems solely from its common usage here, where I live. I have no personal reference point regarding its use as a marketing tool on the internet. I do know when I'm in its presence, because I've spent half my life in Hawai'i. In hindsight, it was probably not the best term to use on an international forum, because like the word "aloha", its meaning is apparently widely misconstrued throughout much of the world.

In that regard, it reminds me of another four-letter word that people have been trying to define since long before I was born..."jazz". I know when I'm in the presence of that one too, but I'd rather let others try to define it, and just carry on applying it as a daily practice.

Oh, one more thing, PC.... the only thing I know about my own navel is that it's increasingly blocking my view of everything to its immediate South...

 

[MR PC]

Oh, one more thing, PC.... the only thing I know about my own navel is that it's increasingly blocking my view of everything to its immediate South...

c'est la vie! (it is the life, that's life)