Double Bass Arcoism

[crd]

@TroyK Are you in pain? Do you have to gig? Meaning, can you take a break and spend sometime thinking about all this before you reinforce bad habits on gigs? I went to music school and played professional to some degree or another for 15 years and holding the bass is still something I have to think about all the time. It's really hard.

A couple quick tips, don't look at your hands. Really, your eyes aren't helping you play and turning your head like that isn't doing you any favors. Also, bend your knees a little bit. Flexing your knees will help you keep loose and supple.

I know people use a German bow with a bent endpin but I found it really helpful to switch to French when I changed from a straight endpin.

I don't know if you've seen Rabbath's Art of the left hand but here he is explaining how he holds the bass:



I think it's worth watching 1000 times. I know it's not 100 percent applicable to jazz pizz but I find it a great starting point. From there I just turn the bass a little to the side so I can get a meaty pizz sound. Since you were brave enough to post pics, I'll do the same since I'm also using the Robpin.
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No matter what there are always compromises. My bass is higher than I would like but I find for arco having the bass a little higher than is comfortable for the left hand, puts my bow in the sweet spot between the bridge and fingerboard. If I wasn't using the bow so much, I would have my instrument lower. Both of those pictures are after I'd been playing at full intensity for 30 plus minutes. Definitely not perfect but sustainable.

 

[TroyK]

@TroyK Are you in pain?...

Yes, constantly day and night. I'm seeing doctors and specialists and getting images and pursuing remedies. I have several things wrong with my broken body.

Do you have to gig?

Yes.

I don't know if you've seen Rabbath's Art of the left hand but here he is explaining how he holds the bass:

This is helpful, thank you. I will watch it.

...Since you were brave enough to post pics...

You know, you're the second person to say that. It never occurred to me that it was brave. Posting audio would be brave. I posted the original photo because I realize how bad it is and thought "what was I doing here?" It's definitely not how I play, but I still don't have an explanation for why I was in this position when this photo was taken. Whatever anyone has to say about it, I can take it, because I'm not defending anything about it. I wouldn't have posted it if I wasn't open to whatever people have to say about it. Clearly it's a position that I shouldn't be in.

 

[AGCurry]

I don't know if you've seen Rabbath's Art of the left hand but here he is explaining how he holds the bass:



I think it's worth watching 1000 times. I know it's not 100 percent applicable to jazz pizz but I find it a great starting point. From there I just turn the bass a little to the side so I can get a meaty pizz sound

Thanks for this video. What was useful to me was the advice to turn the top of the bass away from me, so I'm not basically facing its ribs. My teacher is always telling me to keep my right elbow up and out, and this approach to the bass takes care of that. Now I just have to remember to DO IT.

 

[crd]

Yes, constantly day and night. I'm seeing doctors and specialists and getting images and pursuing remedies. I have several things wrong with my broken body.

I'm sorry. That is the worst and I wish you a speedy recovery.

If I was in that situation I would do whatever it took to make playing easier including a reduced size instrument or EUB or never trying to play in thumb position etc. I also would get Alexander lessons as fast as possible.

You know, you're the second person to say that. It never occurred to me that it was brave. Posting audio would be brave. I posted the original photo because I realize how bad it is and thought "what was I doing here?" It's definitely not how I play, but I still don't have an explanation for why I was in this position when this photo was taken. Whatever anyone has to say about it, I can take it, because I'm not defending anything about it. I wouldn't have posted it if I wasn't open to whatever people have to say about it. Clearly it's a position that I shouldn't be in.

I was being a little facetious. It's refreshing to see posts that aren't just "how do I spend my money?" and actually have to do with making music on the bass

 

[Ryan in PDX]

Have you tried taking a video while you practice? You could prop your phone up on a stool and take a video for a bit, then turn to face another direction, then another... and watch a video of yourself, in motion, from several angles, in seconds. You could also do this at gigs (give or take the spinning around). You could take the videos in to your appointments as well, to show the docs what's up.

Of course you're getting great pointers from everyone here, but I feel like you're possibly reading too much into one photo that you are pretty sure was taken during soundcheck. In your second photo, it looks like you're holding the neck too far away from you... but it's just one photo, and maybe you were adjusting your stance or stretching or anything else at that exact moment. I'm not a doctor or an advanced player by any means, but I was taught to play with my (bass) neck over my shoulder and a couple of inches from my head.

My teacher was supportive of me trying the angled endpin (he uses one himself), and I wish he'd just told me to go that way from day one! He did mention, however, that one advantage of the straight pin is that the required movement of the body as you go in and out of thumb forces you to keep moving and think about what your body is doing. With the angled pin, we don't have to make any big changes while we play, and we can get stagnant. I am definitely guilty of this and have to remind myself to shake things out, stretch, etc. throughout a playing session.

I think that's all I've got for you, and probably more than I'm qualified to give, but I hope you're able to sort some of this pain out soon.

 

[Bruce Calin]

I saw a video of a recent chamber music(arco) concert I played and it showed me graphically the reason for some right-hand discomfort issues I've been having lately- not pizz, just arco. My posture wasn't so great, my bow hold was kind of out of whack, and the bow angle wasn't what I thought it was. I'm going to take some time off from orchestra playing and go back to basics for a while. I know that part of the problem is overplaying in an undersized section in my local community orchestra,but reviewing basic concepts is also needed. Thanks for reminding me by posting the pic.

 

[TroyK]

I'm sorry. That is the worst and I wish you a speedy recovery.

If I was in that situation I would do whatever it took to make playing easier including a reduced size instrument or EUB or never trying to play in thumb position etc. I also would get Alexander lessons as fast as possible.

I had some problems more than a decade ago and Alexander Technique essentially was the answer or at least it was more productive than anything else. The issues with it are a) finding someone qualified to teach it and b) affording it. Insurance won't pitch in. But still, it's good advice.

Have you tried taking a video while you practice? ...

This is a good suggestion as well. The bandleader did have a video camera on a tripod and we're going to watch it together on Wednesday. I could also ask my son to film me in my practice room from multiple angles.

I have a trio gig Thursday and then play with this same group again on Sunday, so have to power through for now. Lot's of self care in between and I am practicing and attending to these posture issues. Everyone's comments so far have been appreciated and I'm not dismissing any of them.

The Robpin was not about playing faculty or thumb position for me. It was about the pain that I've been having, which preceded it. I've been going to jam sessions pretty regularly and sitting in on the host's bass which is bigger than mine and balanced differently and with a straight endpin. I think that's been at least boosting these problems, so I've stopped doing that for now.

 

[Ryan in PDX]

That's great if your kid can help, but I'd think you could also just prop the phone in a glass/roll of gaff tape, or lean it against a stack of books to get some immediate feedback any time.

The Robpin was not about playing faculty or thumb position for me. It was about the pain that I've been having, which preceded it. I've been going to jam sessions pretty regularly and sitting in on the host's bass which is bigger than mine and balanced differently and with a straight endpin. I think that's been at least boosting these problems, so I've stopped doing that for now.

Could you take your robpin to this jam and pop it into the host's bass? Seems like that's one of the biggest advantages of the robpin.

 

[TroyK]

...Could you take your robpin to this jam and pop it into the host's bass? Seems like that's one of the biggest advantages of the robpin.

I could if my endpin was 10mm like everyone else's.

I could also bring my bass, it's just sort of etiquette not to. People know me well enough at some of these sessions, that I could explain why and it would be fine, but I've got steady gigs through Thanksgiving, so I think staying home and either practing or resting is better until there is a lull again.

 

[JBarz]

Ughh, sorry to hear about your pain. Listen, I awkwardly tried a bunch of positions with my ergonpin when it came in, but found “the way” when I found the balance point that let me play arco or pizz without the left hand supporting the bass at all. Get your bow out, dig the player side upper bout into your groin (right under your belly for support), and work on your standing zazen posture while playing longtones with your left hand in your pocket. This is a relatively recent ‘discovery’ for me, but once I “got it”, holding the bass any other way seems stupid and totally inefficient. It’s like riding a bike. You might have to ‘catch’ it with your cheek or shoulder while you’re finding the balance point, but eventually you’ll get to where your rib cage is doing the “steering”. l still suck at playing bass, though, but at least I can practice for long periods with no aches and pains now. Ideally, it’s best when I walk away from playing with my spine feeling better than before, but this is inconsistent and I’m still finding my way. **this is 100% my totally amateur 2c, take what you will as grain of salt… happy healing!

 

[Ryan in PDX]

I could if my endpin was 10mm like everyone else's.

I could also bring my bass, it's just sort of etiquette not to. People know me well enough at some of these sessions, that I could explain why and it would be fine, but I've got steady gigs through Thanksgiving, so I think staying home and either practing or resting is better until there is a lull again.

Can you swap out a 10mm rod? Seems like it'd be relatively little effort. Or is the rod an either/or at purchase time? Sorry to pester, I'm genuinely curious at this point.

 

[bassically_eli]

I don't really believe that's actually how you play in the first picture. It looks like you're checking the rosin on the strings, the bridge, a vibrating cable or something. In the second picture, it looks like you're not standing up quite straight, you should be a little more behind the bass as others have said, and I think your feet could actually be a little wider. Regarding where the weight is on your feet, I would think it should be evenly distributed as it would be when doing a squat. (I know, a lot of people say to put your weight on your heels when performing a squat, but that's just a prompt for when people are too far forward.)

In the Rabath video, is he actually resting the neck on his shoulder at all times? Or is it just really, really close?

 

[TroyK]

Can you swap out a 10mm rod? Seems like it'd be relatively little effort. Or is the rod an either/or at purchase time? Sorry to pester, I'm genuinely curious at this point.

Yes, I could swap the rod at home to a 10mm one.

 

[GeeDeeAitch]

When I studied with Richard Davis, he spread his feet extremely wide apart - don't know what he's doing now decades later.

He told me that he adopted that stance because his first bass had a rattle in the back that he would silence by bracing his knee against it. Sometimes I wonder how many thousands of his students hold their instruments that way because of one bass back in Chicago that had an annoying crack in it.

 

[Jason Sypher]

I think any concept you decide to go with must first and foremost feel and look natural. Stand without the bass then bring the bass to you. The bent endpin fascilitates standing behind the bass, bass standing balanced and then you approach it. I’m not so convinced of the bent endpin unless you are playing arco most of the time. There are certain weight distribution things that work so well for pizz tone when standing. Your bow placement is way down the list of concerns here.

 

[Notaluthier]

It seems like you are angling the neck of the bass away from you instead of in line with you. (it's much easier to just have someone move you into the correct position ie teacher).

 

[Notaluthier]

I'm personally a Streicher guy but there are many “correct” ways, but most importantly you shouldn't be feeling any unnecessary tension or pain.

 

[Notaluthier]

 

[TroyK]

It seems like you are angling the neck of the bass away from you instead of in line with you.

I think this is important. Working with my mirror now. I like those photos too, that guy looks comfortable. e

(it's much easier to just have someone move you into the correct position ie teacher).

Yeah, I know. It's been since before covid. I'll make a call.

To clarify for everyone, I'm not certain that my pain is caused by playing bass. It might be, there are medical suspects as well and bass may not be causing this at all. It is interfering with my playing, though.

 

[CaseyVancouver]

LA Phil bass section is a good example to emulate
all look comfortable and confident