Double Bass Arcoism

[TroyK]

I realize that this may be too deep of a well for such and simple question, but this photo of me on last night's gig got posted somewhere today and I am shocked at my janky posture. I don't know what I was doing here exactly, I used the bow a few times last night and was pretty happy with the result, but I might have just been warming up the rosin before the 1st set when this picture was taken, but in any event:

I'm not unhappy with where the bow is between the fingerboard and the bridge, but I know I'm not supposed to be all bent over like that. Is there an easy way to say what I should be doing instead or are we way beyond a simple correction?

 

[Don Kasper]

Yikes!
Your left wrist looks like it is about to fracture - not a healthy shape.
The neck of the bass is pointing AWAY from you- I would suggest that you have the bass neck at least parallel to you, (in general), or leaning into, or near, your Left Shoulder or thereabouts.
Your right forearm is touching the upper bout - not ever a healthy position for arco.
Your shoes, however, are tied and both are nicely polished!
I know you've been experimenting with the "...endpin...." lately, but your geometry and relation the bass (arco & pizz), looks very unhealthy and inefficient.
IMHO, of course, as always.
Thanks for sharing...srsly. Very brave of you to do so.

 

[TroyK]

Well, I new that this photo showed something really wonky, so shared it with full expectations of people calling me out on it. Appreciate the input.

I honestly don't know what was going on here. It's aweful. I feel pretty good pizz these days and have photos that don't make me cringe.

 

[Tom Lane]

I'm no expert but I'm surprised that with your bent endpin that you're not behind the bass more. I'm also pretty sure that my teachers would have scolded me for letting my right elbow drop. Time to get your mirror out when you practice to check yourself? One trick I've learned is not to look at the bow. It helps me in all kinds of ways, not the least being better able to focus on the tone it's producing instead of my criticizing my technique.

 

[Lee Moses]

The angle at which you're holding the bass calls to mind this recently revived thread: Viennese school of HOLDING the bass

 

[james condino]

Woahhhhhh!!!!!!!!! Some old white guy is photobombing your cool bass picture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I sure hope the arco police have not been out spying on me for my gigs this last month. I'd surely be in arco jail with you; but I could easily defend myself with the old ALCOA bass. It would take a bullet for both of us, no problem...

 

[TroyK]

I'm not a proper arco player, but I have had lessons on it and practiced etudes and simple classical pieces, this is clearly not what I was taught or what I think I normally do. I do have mirrors in my practice space, but haven't really practiced arco for a while. Time to start up again, I guess. May make a call to my old teacher too, see what he thinks about my new-endpin position.

 

[JBarz]

I had to go to my bass to figure it out, but the only problem is that you’re leaning forward to look down at the bow, as if you’re unsure and checking if it’s where it’s supposed to be. If you were leaning back with your head closer to the nut looking at the drummer you’d be back in alignment (weight on your heels, straight wrist, all that…). My 2c

 

[JBarz]

Also, maybe set the pin on the floor in line with your right foot instead of the left foot so you don’t have to reach as far with your right hand.

 

[Don Hergert]

The angle at which you're holding the bass calls to mind this recently revived thread: Viennese school of HOLDING the bass

YES!!!!

Troy, you might want to look at the above old-but-revived thread by @LouisF if you haven't already. When I saw your OP pic, I was convinced you were trying out the "Viennese" method. The lean of the DB, the left wrist, everything seems to match.

 

[Supadope]

It looks like you're rocking, but I don't play upright!

 

[TroyK]

...When I saw your OP pic, I was convinced you were trying out the "Viennese" method. The lean of the DB, the left wrist, everything seems to match.

Well, yes, obviously... The Viennese Method, that's what I was going for, clearly.

 

[Alexis Duntov]

I had to go to my bass to figure it out, but the only problem is that you’re leaning forward to look down at the bow, as if you’re unsure and checking if it’s where it’s supposed to be. If you were leaning back with your head closer to the nut looking at the drummer you’d be back in alignment (weight on your heels, straight wrist, all that…). My 2c

I think OP must be applying rosin and not actually playing music. But I have to disagree with your “weight on your heels” approach. At least for me. I discovered this summer that, particularly when I was playing arco, I was so focused on intonation and bow speed/placement that I was neglecting what was going on with my feet. I’m in much better shape to play efficiently (and protect my back) when I am on the balls of my feet, knees slightly bent. The further into thumb position, the more bend at the knees. But it was acute pain in my heels, particularly my right heel, that tipped me off to the fact that I had way too much weight concentrated in my heels rather than spread out on the balls of my feet and tempered by a slight bend at the knee. This is just what works for me. It’s such an individual process. For lack of a less creepy term, we each have to find our own “dance” with respect to holding and playing this contraption.

 

[garrett2]

I’m definitely of the weight slightly on the balls of the feet leaning slightly forward persuasion.

 

[elberon]

Your left arm, elbow, and wrist placement setup shouldn't be radically different for when you're playing pizz or arco. Some things: lower the bass, put the bass in front of you more, raise your left elbow, straighten your left wrist, keep your thumb generally flat on the back of the neck (opposing your fingers). Have you ever had regular lessons with an experienced private teacher in person? How did you make it through the night playing with that posture without pain? Is the picture accurately showing your normal setup?

 

[JBarz]

Full disclosure, I’m only an amateur bassist but have spent the better part of my life obsessed with physical integration therapy (Alexander technique, ROLFing, yoga, etc) to get over some saxophone neck-strap related spinal issues. The “weight on the heels” thing is something my structural integration therapist told me one time to get me to lean back and quit hunching my head forward and down so much. I don’t know if it applies to everyone’s body - I’m dealing with some some minor upper thoracic scoliosis. I have been working a lot with my ergonpin finding my ‘sweet spot’ playing arco for the past couple months. With any instrument I play, I try to find the same alignment in my body and then try to make the axe come to me in a relaxed way (in practice/theory), but when playing everything is always moving and in flux. You probably just got photo’d at an awkward moment.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I'm no expert but I'm surprised that with your bent endpin that you're not behind the bass more.

This is what jumped out at me as well. Having the bass more forward facing tends to align the hands and wrists in a more healthy way in general.

 

[lurk]

You know, I've seen all kinds of stances. I don't think we should write off that Vienna pic as wrong - those cats play their a***s off. When I studied with Richard Davis, he spread his feet extremely wide apart - don't know what he's doing now decades later. Check out how low Harvie S has his bass - Michael Moore too. How about Alex Blake for the other extreme? I once attended a Gary Karr clinic where he talked about having the pin low enough to lean the bass forward in thumb using it's weight to help press the strings down. The bent/angled endpin thing is a whole other deal. I've seen great players with their left elbows up and elbows down. If you're comfortable, do it. Our instruments are huge and unwieldy and we come in different shapes and sizes.

 

[TroyK]

Your left arm, elbow, and wrist placement setup shouldn't be radically different for when you're playing pizz or arco. Some things: lower the bass, put the bass in front of you more, raise your left elbow, straighten your left wrist, keep your thumb generally flat on the back of the neck (opposing your fingers).

Thank you.

Have you ever had regular lessons with an experienced private teacher in person? How did you make it through the night playing with that posture without pain? Is the picture accurately showing your normal setup?

Yes, I have had regular lessons with good jazz and classical teachers (pre-covid) and this is NOT what they taught me. I don't know what this was about.

This is what jumped out at me as well. Having the bass more forward facing tends to align the hands and wrists in a more healthy way in general.

This is the other picture that showed up from the same night. The sax player's stand is obstructing, but I'm sure it was a pizz moment, which was 99.999% of the night. I've been practicing with a mirror, but I may not be looking wide shot enough, I've been working on specific things involving my shoulder and right hand. It wouldn't hurt for me to call up my old teacher and see if he could see me for a few lessons regarding my positioning with the new end pin setup.

I honestly don't know what was happening when the first photo was taken. I was shocked by how I was standing. I don't know if it was a fleeting moment or if I was locked into that position playing like that. I didn't play a lot of arco that night. I did play some heavy long notes at sound check to warm up the strings and rosin. This might have been what I was doing when this photo was taken, I don't know. I don't even know who took the picture. Agree that it is holistically bad and regardless of what it captured, at the very least need to work on this.

 

[LouisF]

There are two keys to mastering the Viennese bass hold: 1) you have to be old; 2) you sit!!