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Double Bass Arcoism

#41
Those are all great players, but "comfort"? If had to stand like Chris is doing (far left) I'd have to be carried to the chiropractor. Bending like that at the waist, or worse, hunched over the shoulders of the bass (Gary Karr does it a lot), is just murder for me. The "Viennese" hold in other thread has both my feet planted on the floor, back straight (granted not in the photo of me at Disney), core engaged, shoulders down, chest open, arms and wrists loose, etc; for me it was very much influenced by Alexander work. A helpful tool was the ergobass "knee rest" (Joel Quarrington uses one)

Far be it from me to say that any one (let alone the LA Phil) is doing anything "wrong", but I found a posture and seated "stance" that allows for (mostly) pain free playing that works for me.
 
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#44
bassically_eli said:
Are they all using bent end pins as well? I'm not sure about the guy on the left.
Click to expand...
That is Chris Hanulik the principal, without an angled endpin.

To my eye, Hanulik mostly has excellent bass posture, as he is bent at the waist.
If you watch him play he does hunch over a bit now and then.
Nothing a good angled endpin won’t solve, maybe with a short stool and both feet on the floor. I’ll leave that up to someone else to teach him lol.

Not like say, Edicson Ruiz or Mark Bernat, who look twisted and melting. (but sound beautiful)
 
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#45
LouisF said:
If had to stand like Chris is doing (far left) I'd have to be carried to the chiropractor.
Click to expand...

bassically_eli said:
Are they all using bent end pins as well?
Click to expand...

The bass on the left is the only *without* a bent endpin.

A good illustration of one of the benefits of the bent endpin, and also proof that amazing players figure it out (French v German, straight v bent) regardless.

@CaseyVancouver could you link us to the video? I have seen it before and can't remember what it's called, but I remember it clearly showing some body shifts which could be relevant here. It's also an inspiringly good performance of music I would consider "challenging to the listener."
 
#47
Notaluthier said:
I'm personally a Streicher guy but there are many “correct” ways, but most importantly you shouldn't be feeling any unnecessary tension or pain.View attachment 4874981
Click to expand...
I started out with Streicher as well, but over time almost every classical teacher I met advised against it. I think it was mostly in regard to my proportions. With the bass all the way down (not using the endpin) I found I was contorting my body into all kinds of shapes. My arms being short I had little chance of bowing towards the bridge without quite a lot of movement. Also the bow tilting from the hand for string crossing drove my teachers nuts. Ha! But I did keep a lot of the teachings in my playing, particularly the bass/body connection and not squeezing with the thumb on the neck. I’ve morphed into a high-endpin guy ala Edgar because I can get my bow tip to frog down to the bridge and not bend to far forward. This is not great for regular pizz gigs as I’m in the lower positions most of the night. I lower the endpin a notch for those. Streicher is interesting though.
 
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#49
CaseyVancouver said:
That is Chris Hanulik the principal, without an angled endpin.

To my eye, Hanulik mostly has excellent bass posture, as he is bent at the waist.
If you watch him play he does hunch over a bit now and then.
Nothing a good angled endpin won’t solve, maybe with a short stool and both feet on the floor. I’ll leave that up to someone else to teach him lol.

Not like say, Edicson Ruiz or Mark Bernat, who look twisted and melting. (but sound beautiful)
Click to expand...
Agreed. The videos of them playing Bach always scare me. They sound so good. And I think “how many years can they play like that?”
 
#50
+
Ryan in PDX said:
Have you tried taking a video while you practice? You could prop your phone up on a stool and take a video for a bit, then turn to face another direction, then another... and watch a video of yourself, in motion, from several angles, in seconds. You could also do this at gigs (give or take the spinning around). You could take the videos in to your appointments as well, to show the docs what's up.

Of course you're getting great pointers from everyone here, but I feel like you're possibly reading too much into one photo that you are pretty sure was taken during soundcheck. In your second photo, it looks like you're holding the neck too far away from you... but it's just one photo, and maybe you were adjusting your stance or stretching or anything else at that exact moment. I'm not a doctor or an advanced player by any means, but I was taught to play with my (bass) neck over my shoulder and a couple of inches from my head.

My teacher was supportive of me trying the angled endpin (he uses one himself), and I wish he'd just told me to go that way from day one! He did mention, however, that one advantage of the straight pin is that the required movement of the body as you go in and out of thumb forces you to keep moving and think about what your body is doing. With the angled pin, we don't have to make any big changes while we play, and we can get stagnant. I am definitely guilty of this and have to remind myself to shake things out, stretch, etc. throughout a playing session.

I think that's all I've got for you, and probably more than I'm qualified to give, but I hope you're able to sort some of this pain out soon.
Click to expand...
+1 on the video. You’ll see what you are doing wrong in two seconds of watching it. And don’t watch yourself in the mirror while you are filming yourself. At least not at first. Get as objective feedback as possible by just doing what you do in a playing situation. Then go back and review the video. I’ve discovered a lot by watching videos of myself (and getting feedback from you all). Some things I discovered:

-I sometimes allow the bow to get too close to the fingerboard, unintentionally
-I’m not breathing smoothly, jaw is tensed
- I speed up in anticipation of difficult phrases

Lots to discover by filming yourself. Great thread!
 
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#52
Jason Sypher said:
I started out with Streicher as well, but over time almost every classical teacher I met advised against it. I think it was mostly in regard to my proportions. With the bass all the way down (not using the endpin) I found I was contorting my body into all kinds of shapes. My arms being short I had little chance of bowing towards the bridge without quite a lot of movement. Also the bow tilting from the hand for string crossing drove my teachers nuts. Ha! But I did keep a lot of the teachings in my playing, particularly the bass/body connection and not squeezing with the thumb on the neck. I’ve morphed into a high-endpin guy ala Edgar because I can get my bow tip to frog down to the bridge and not bend to far forward. This is not great for regular pizz gigs as I’m in the lower positions most of the night. I lower the endpin a notch for those. Streicher is interesting though.
Click to expand...
I have super long arms and a short torso (I can touch my bridge easily) so it works well for me.
 
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#54
Alexis Duntov said:
-I’m not breathing smoothly, jaw is tensed
- I speed up in anticipation of difficult phrases
Click to expand...

Good observation. I often find myself tight as a violin string, telling myself to relax.
Learned relaxation is a thing. Breathing is part of it.

Tension is a bad habit deserving it’s own thread.

I recall my chamber orchestra conductor, with 35 years professional cello experience,
talking about swapping cello lessons with the hotshot new young principal cellist in his symphony.
Their first lesson, from the young cellist to the seasoned pro, was all about tension.
You could sense the inspiration when he talked of it.
That same young cellist is now our chamber conductor, and gives us hints now and then.
 
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#56
A couple of things:
a) The original photo I've posted is not how I'm playing. I'm not sure what was going on, but it was an extreme out-of-position moment that I don't really have an explanation for.
b) This discussion has been helpful and I do think that I have been playing out of position a bit and specifically I think since switching to the RobPin, I just kind of went crazy with the change, focusing solely on the position of my left shoulder and my right hand for pizz.

I adjusted where I have the endpin set and have been reorienting my bass position back directionally toward where I playing with it straight. Not all the way, but trying to normalize things a bit. I don't think I'm done with that. My gig yesterday was videoed and I'll spend some time watching that carefully when I get it and keep practicing and making adjustments until I'm home. I may also reach out to an old teacher for help after Thanksgiving.

Thank you all for the smack down. It's important to me to play well and more importantly still to play for a long time without hitting a physical limitation.
 
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#57
I've been more aware of these types of issues lately because of age and the fact that I've been playing this beast for 50+ years pretty much full time. There have been few physical issues of any consequence for me and I want to keep it that way for as long as I can. Something I've been more aware of recently is the number of physical problems that younger players of various instruments are having apparently as a result of playing. I try to make a point with my students about the importance of avoiding injury because of anything relating to the instrument. I would hope that teachers of any instrument would also make this a big deal. It breaks my heart to see young, enthusiastic players struggling with injury as a result of playing music. Body awareness and relaxation are really important, as well as good technique.
 
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#58
No one has really chimed in on Alexander Technique here. Since it was mentioned a couple times, and some might wonder, the core of the teaching is about efficiency and relaxation while doing any physical activity at all - from playing music, to doing martial arts, to digging ditches. It is a universal tool that can help anyone struggling with postural issues or unwanted tension doing literally anything. And one last thing: it was developed by an English actor who was trying to figure out why he was losing his voice, and uncovered a host of unconscious habits he labeled "the startle response." I'm not sure if he invented that phrase, but it doesn't matter. My real point here is twofold: Alexander can be a total game changer, and it was developed with performance in mind. Anyways, really interesting thread.
 
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#59
My "day job" for 50 years has been as a stage director and chair/dean of several theatre programs. The Alexander technique has been an essential part of actor training in all my programs (and many others). We use also in teacher training workshops, because of the strain classroom teachers put of their voices.

There's another thread here where people talk about a "Viennese" bass hold, which I have vaguely adopted. I should add that I made that adjustment with the help of my Alexander teacher - I am centered, neck and head loose, chest open, arms flowing freely from the back; and the bass - despite the odd angle is actually centered in relation to my chest, with more or less equal weight distribution -- and legs open, feet planted (left one on a yoga block).

Definitely recommend it (and --- just a small correction above - Alexander was, I think, an Australian actor)



https://www.amazon.com/Indirect-Pro...p-0195388593/dp/0195388593/ref=dp_ob_title_bk
 

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#60
LouisF said:
My "day job" for 50 years has been as a stage director and chair/dean of several theatre programs. The Alexander technique has been an essential part of actor training in all my programs (and many others). We use also in teacher training workshops, because of the strain classroom teachers put of their voices.

There's another thread here where people talk about a "Viennese" bass hold, which I have vaguely adopted. I should add that I made that adjustment with the help of my Alexander teacher - I am centered, neck and head loose, chest open, arms flowing freely from the back; and the bass - despite the odd angle is actually centered in relation to my chest, with more or less equal weight distribution -- and legs open, feet planted (left one on a yoga block).

Definitely recommend it (and --- just a small correction above - Alexander was, I think, an Australian actor)



https://www.amazon.com/Indirect-Pro...p-0195388593/dp/0195388593/ref=dp_ob_title_bk
Click to expand...

Thanks - misremembered his nationality. I learned Alexander in theater school. The Dell'Arte school in Cali. It's value is inestimable.
 
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