Double Bass Are all musical styles of equal value?

[Ed Fuqua]

I wasn't really going to come back in on this, but I feel that something hasn't really been addressed. I play jazz because I feel that jazz is the best music in the world. It's WHY I want to play music. I listen to a lot of different kinds of music and I like a lot of different kinds of music. But when I pick up an instrument, what I want to play is jazz.

Value is personal, subjective. And sure, it's malleable. I wasn't born liking this music. Everyone needs to decide for themselves what music makes them more themselves, what their true voice is. A lot of people, playing all different kinds of music, never experience that, they are involved in the music they are for all kinds of non musical reasons.
Music, at its best, is a way to discover who you really are.

 

[phillybass101]

This is a just very subjective issue. IMO the only people harping on what's best, or hardest, or requires the most are snobby Jazz Musicians. Not all Jazz Musicians are snobs however. I am a Funk Bass Player and to ME and for ME it's the best kind of music. And that is all. Most serious Jazz Musicians I know can't even play Funk the way a real Funk Player plays it. Quiet as it's kept we make jokes about Jazz Cats trying to play Funk. There is no best. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It's all good.

 

[bass12]

I feel you. I think jazz players are usually better players in nearly every aspect of music in my experience. I employ a lot of musicians in my band and I always view jazz experience as a big plus. Jazz players STUDY music, they know more than the major and minor scale, they understand how to approach music from the perspective of chords, they have great ears and chops and are fast learners in my experience. Rock players in my experience can have a tougher time grasping musical concepts in some of our repetiore. Rock players back in the day were at least trained in the blues or theory (Zep, Floyd, Rush) but I'm not sure that study, disciplined practice, and theory are really part of the culture anymore. Not a knock..just observation on level of musical knowledge based on my experience.

I agree that jazz players tend to be academically better schooled than most non-jazz or classical players. But I've also found that the people who, while being "good" players, were the most inept when it came to more popular styles were jazz-trained at a university level. I know it's not the case with some music programs but I know that with some it's all about jazz and there's no focus at all on blues (ironic), funk, reggae, rock - you name it. So, for example, you get drummers coming out of school and they can't play a backbeat to save their lives (not to mention that they have no clue about tuning their kit for anything but jazz). But, having said that, getting some training in jazz (as minor as it has been) has really helped my playing and way of conceptualizing music and I would recommend some jazz study to anyone interested in playing bass.

 

[gavinspoon]

There is no such thing as intrinsic value.

Value comes from peoples desires, needs and expectations. Meet those desires, needs and expectations for a given group of people, and your music will have value to those people.

 

[Michael Case]

Here is the MOST important question. Why is this thread in the music theory forum?

 

[Stick_Player]

Quiet as it's kept we make jokes about Jazz Cats trying to play Funk.

I make jokes about Funk Cats trying to play everything else.

 

[drurb]

Okay, being the *OP* on this thread, I have to interject. !) I was being sincere in my question ...

Okay, you were being serious. You asked for "objective" value. That, as I said is meaningless. Value, especially in an art form is subjective.

...2) Ed Fuqua provided the answer I was looking for - that great music is made regardless of genre.

I'm glad you learned that. I'm just surprised that you needed someone to inform you that great music can be (is?) made regardless of genre. That, of course is a matter of opinion as well.

...The poster that used the *>* signs was correct in my mind and identified a lot of the dissonance I was feeling.

Yes, here's what he said:

Artistically, all forms are equal — Mahler = Britney
Technically, all forms are not equal — Mahler > Britney
Commercially, all forms are not equal &#8212; Mahler < Britney

Notice that he properly suggested no hierarchy in terms of artistic value. Where he did suggest a hierarchy, it was along objective dimensions.

 

[carlthegroover]

Um... value? Sorry, but the OP's question is wrong in plenty of ways... Starting with value...

Value of a song is measured by the musicians' skills or technical prowess? Really?

And what about emotionality? If a simple, 3-chord rock tune gives you the shivers because you feel its power or despair or anything... is it still less value than a complex, time signature-changing jazz improv just because the former can be played by not-so-skillful musicians?

By no means I'm saying jazz doesn't evoke emotions. I'm just saying that, to me, there is a lot more value in what a song evokes in the audience, emotionally, than the actual technical skill of the musicians. Yes, technical prowess can be awesome to behold sometimes and in certain contexts, but take the emotion out of the performance of even the most awe-inspiring technical player, and what are you left with? To me: nothing much.

 

[5StringThunder]

All music has value to somebody, at least the person(s) who made it.

 

[drurb]

+1 to both of the above. Of course. Amazing... five pages.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

By no means I'm saying jazz doesn't evoke emotions. I'm just saying that, to me, there is a lot more value in what a song evokes in the audience, emotionally, than the actual technical skill of the musicians. Yes, technical prowess can be awesome to behold sometimes and in certain contexts, but take the emotion out of the performance of even the most awe-inspiring technical player, and what are you left with? To me: nothing much.

Your'e not the only one.


Still... Do you find a higher percentage where players nerd out on technical chops in the jazz idiom? Absolutely. But you're also ignored the gazillions of other recordings where that's not happening and a whole lot of soul is being laid down. The list of soulful jazz is endless.

Sides the same criticism goes for any style of music. Gotta have that swing. IMO, alot of smooth jazz is simply dead and has little emotion because it sounds very formulaic. Same can be said with lots of rock and the heavily marketed stuff you find on the radio.

 

[Marc Piane]

I wasn't really going to come back in on this, but I feel that something hasn't really been addressed. I play jazz because I feel that jazz is the best music in the world. It's WHY I want to play music. I listen to a lot of different kinds of music and I like a lot of different kinds of music. But when I pick up an instrument, what I want to play is jazz.

Value is personal, subjective. And sure, it's malleable. I wasn't born liking this music. Everyone needs to decide for themselves what music makes them more themselves, what their true voice is. A lot of people, playing all different kinds of music, never experience that, they are involved in the music they are for all kinds of non musical reasons.
Music, at its best, is a way to discover who you really are.

Best. Post. Ever.

 

[3star2nr]

your looking at it wrong you need to treat every style of music like reading a book to discover new ways of expression.
imho classical music is like reading an encyclopedia. nd is definately worth pursuing, jazz is a good style because it teaches yu how to improvise and link modes together to create music on the spot.

as far as weather all styles are valuable it depends on what you are into. if you dont like dubstep yhen its not valuable to you if you do though then it is.

i dont think any harm can be done to you by learning or hearing more.
Mozart for example mastered every known style and genre in his day. and imho beethoven is over ratted. i dont like his music and he was a jerk in person.

 

[drurb]

...as far as weather all styles are valuable it depends on what you are into.

That's really all there is to it.

 

[Tom Lane]

+1 to both of the above. Of course. Amazing... five pages.

Do I hear S-I-X pages?
Here's a NY Times opinion on how music affects our brains.
Invalid Link Removed

 

[bass12]

Your'e not the only one.


Still... Do you find a higher percentage where players nerd out on technical chops in the jazz idiom? Absolutely. But you're also ignored the gazillions of other recordings where that's not happening and a whole lot of soul is being laid down. The list of soulful jazz is endless.

Sides the same criticism goes for any style of music. Gotta have that swing. IMO, alot of smooth jazz is simply dead and has little emotion because it sounds very formulaic. Same can be said with lots of rock and the heavily marketed stuff you find on the radio.

Thanks for those links - it's good to hear those guys say what they're saying.

 

[Ash Jazz]

No music is equal to another. Even different songs in the same genre are not equal.

In order to have a meaningful comparison you have to name specific criteria.

1. Complexity of chord progression
2. Volume of sales
3. Emotional impact (difficult but perhaps not impossible to measure)
4. Rythmic complexity

Thats just to name a few possibilities. When you put a generalization out there like "which is better" with no specific criteria then the reader automatically starts using their own. This will inevitably produce unreconcilable results and is not useful unless your goal is to discover what people consider to be the most important aspects of music based on their point of view. In that case the question should be phrased differently.

Having said all that the musical stylings of Toe Head Thompson and his arm pit fart bands renditions of the classics are definitely of greater equal value than Fat Cat Matt and his Jazz spoons. Toes rendition of Misty is sure to put tears in your eyes...and discoloration in your face.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Speaking of arm pit fart bands, I just about died laughing when I saw this:


And yeah, he nails the phrasing.

 

[Ash Jazz]

Speaking of arm pit fart bands, I just about died laughing when I saw this:


And yeah, he nails the phrasing.

Truly amazing...in a run for your life kind of way!

 

[carlthegroover]

Your'e not the only one.


Still... Do you find a higher percentage where players nerd out on technical chops in the jazz idiom? Absolutely. But you're also ignored the gazillions of other recordings where that's not happening and a whole lot of soul is being laid down. The list of soulful jazz is endless.

Sides the same criticism goes for any style of music. Gotta have that swing. IMO, alot of smooth jazz is simply dead and has little emotion because it sounds very formulaic. Same can be said with lots of rock and the heavily marketed stuff you find on the radio.

Sure, man. I didn't express myself correctly. I didn't mean that all jazz tunes were souless, or that technicality automatically meant no emotions evoked. I've heard some tunes that are pretty emotional.

And I agree: doesn't matter what genre we're talking about, there will always be soulful tunes and souless tunes.