- Feb 27, 2005
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Are american men being feminized?
- Thread starter 3506string
- Start date
Okay so I didn't read this entire thread (way too many pages) but I'm gonna throw down my .2 anyway.
Boys aren't being feminized but they sure are being taught that they are inferior.
Here are a few points...
Women expect to have high paying positions of power but they also expect to be bought diner. Women want to take on the role of men when it suits them and only when it suits them. Ie: Women can go to war if they want to...but men have to?
Take your DAUGHTER to work day? What did I do to put down women as a 5 year old boy that I can't get the day off, free lunch and a chance to see what my parents do for a living?
Watch a TV commercial lately? Men can be portrayed and bumbling idiots, but don't you dare portray a woman that way. Reverse the rolls in that Sonic commercial and watch the fall out ensue.
It took me a long time to realize that although my culture teaches me that I should revere Women I'll never get laid with that attitude.
Boys aren't being feminized but they sure are being taught that they are inferior.
Here are a few points...
Women expect to have high paying positions of power but they also expect to be bought diner. Women want to take on the role of men when it suits them and only when it suits them. Ie: Women can go to war if they want to...but men have to?
Take your DAUGHTER to work day? What did I do to put down women as a 5 year old boy that I can't get the day off, free lunch and a chance to see what my parents do for a living?
Watch a TV commercial lately? Men can be portrayed and bumbling idiots, but don't you dare portray a woman that way. Reverse the rolls in that Sonic commercial and watch the fall out ensue.
It took me a long time to realize that although my culture teaches me that I should revere Women I'll never get laid with that attitude.
True true. I do like to add vermouth (enough to cover the ice after pouring it out). But I def prefer vodka martinis; don't like gin very much.
Let's take a look at each of these.
You are overgeneralizing. Women expect to have high paying positions of power if they have education and work experience to deserve them. As for expecting to be bought dinner, that really depends on the woman. And in my experience the women that have high paying/powerful positions and the one who always expect to be bought dinner are rarely one and the same.
As for going to war? We don't have a draft or mandatory service. Despite a number of military conflicts including the Iraq War we haven't had a draft in decades. Until we do it's a moot point. But if we did, then I'd agree that eligible women should be subject to it too.
Obviously the original point of the program was to encourage girls to think about careers that traditionally women haven't pursued, at least not in large numbers. The point was to dispel stereotypes about "careers for women" that still exist. But if it's any consolation, it has been "daughters and sons" for the last six years anyway.
It still happens all the time. Bimbo characters still appear quite often. On my last flight for work they showed an episode of some sitcom where the whole premise was physics nerds rooming with a hot chick with both shown as bumbling idiots at different times. As a man I do find it annoying that the standard sitcom family features a fat idiot father. Of course, what strains credulity is that they are without fail "married" to a really attractive woman.
If we want to get into a discussion of attraction an evolutionary psychology we can, but it isn't germane to the point.
The point I was trying to make about free diner is we live in a world where a woman can pick and choose. Well if I'm broke and un-educated then I'll have a man take care of me. If not I'll demand his job. When was the last time you met a man who didn't have to work for living? A Woman? Women have a choice, men do not. As far as the draft, I distinctly recall filling out that paperwork when I turned 18, pretty sure my sister did not.
Your talking about "The Big Bang Theory" this is not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about commercials, 30 second super PC snippets. If there is a woman and a man interacting and one of them is going to be stupid its always the man. It's not PC to portray a Woman as un-intelligent, its perfectly acceptable to portray a man this way.
I was watching Star Trek TNG Monday and Diana and Dr.Crusher fought by breaking pots over peoples heads instead of using swords (the episode when Q sends them all into a Robin Hood scenario)...My roommate turned and said to me "I can't believe they actually portrayed women as unable to sword fight! How old is this!?" We have taken this women can do everything a man can do (but only if they feel like it) + reproduce attitude so far that it has to be having an influence on males.
As for take your daughter to work day, it was take your daughter to work day when I was kid and I distinctly remember feeling like the world took a poop on me cause I had a penis. This is how we in America perpetuate social in-equality by imposing in reverse on our children.
This is what I'm talking about:
I see where you are coming from, but I still don't agree at all with the idea that men are being taught that they are inferior.
And yes, there is always going to be sexual inequality, both in the sense that on average men are bigger and stronger than women and in the sense that women can use sex as a way of getting what they want from men. That's just biology.
As for TV commercials, that's simply a matter of avoiding lawsuits/protests in this overly litigious society. Replace Man and Woman with white man and black man in your example and the same thing would apply. There are dumb and bumbling men and women of every ethnic group but in a 30 second advert the "safe" target is the white male but not exactly for the reasons you seem to believe.
There's never going to be complete equality because men and women are different and people that think otherwise are kidding themselves. But there are ways in which complete equality should exist (equal access to education/job opportunities etc) and I think we're still moving in the right direction in that regard.
And yes, there is always going to be sexual inequality, both in the sense that on average men are bigger and stronger than women and in the sense that women can use sex as a way of getting what they want from men. That's just biology.
As for TV commercials, that's simply a matter of avoiding lawsuits/protests in this overly litigious society. Replace Man and Woman with white man and black man in your example and the same thing would apply. There are dumb and bumbling men and women of every ethnic group but in a 30 second advert the "safe" target is the white male but not exactly for the reasons you seem to believe.
There's never going to be complete equality because men and women are different and people that think otherwise are kidding themselves. But there are ways in which complete equality should exist (equal access to education/job opportunities etc) and I think we're still moving in the right direction in that regard.
I agree completely, and I understand exactly why said commercials are the way they are, because there are no men's rights groups that are going to freak out, while there are about 2,000 women's rights groups that are just waiting to pick the next fight and jump into the lime light.
Your also right that the problem I have with America in regards to women is the same problem I have with America in regards to race as well. It's over compensation, it's the denial of simple truths for the sake of being PC, it's forcing people to be so guarded and careful that it just fosters animosity.
Like Bill points out, I'm allowed to talk about how smart, proper and perfect women are, but if I start saying the same thing about men you better get the stake and some kindling ready. There is no way this can be good for boys...time will tell.
Also perhaps I chose my words wrong, I didn't mean that boys are being directly taught that they are inferior, but what they are being taught is that women are special, when a woman does something it has more meaning, and that they can in no way stand in the way of a woman or they should face persecution.
The way I see it slavery in this country was abolished less than 150 years ago and the last of the Jim Crow laws repealed less than 50 years ago while women have had the right to vote for less than 100 years.
And in this country (as in most industrialized nations around the world) we are still struggling to reach a true equality - and in the case of men and women struggling to define exactly what equality means with the two genders having inescapable differences.
So the pendulum is going to swing too far in some regards and in some regard not far enough - but I think we'll eventually get there.
And in this country (as in most industrialized nations around the world) we are still struggling to reach a true equality - and in the case of men and women struggling to define exactly what equality means with the two genders having inescapable differences.
So the pendulum is going to swing too far in some regards and in some regard not far enough - but I think we'll eventually get there.
Yeah, I see your point, I just feel like our current system of establishing equality is more of a problem then a solution. Unfortunately I can't offer a better one myself.
How does this work? A woman picks up the phone and orders a sugar daddy, or lucrative job, for delivery by Fedex the next day? Most women or men who are broke and un-educated tend to stay broke and un-educated.
How does somebody demand my job? The only way is to compete with me. Bring 'em on.
The only sugar daddies I know of are politicians and ministers. And the problem is that sugar daddies tend to want more than one woman / partner.
I don't know very many women who are not either working for a wage or raising kids. Often they are doing both. For most working class people, neither sex has a choice. Married couples with kids tend to figure out whatever arrangement works best, based on their circumstances.
I remember being pissed about that too. I mean the draft, not your sister.
Most TV commercials appeal to the lowest possible intelligence of both sexes.
I completely understand the things you say. There is a certain amount of "identity/ role confusion" amongst "Some" women.
You cant change nature by passing feel-good laws or social engineering or even political correctness.
Women have different feelings than men...not better or worse, but different. A woman trying to be a man simply doesn't work.
An example is the amount of women Police Officers.
Often a woman can diffuse a situation much better than a man. Other things they can do better just by nature.
However, it's dangerous to tell a 110 pound woman to take on the part of someone who has to do mortal hand to hand combat with a violent felon is stupid.
Sure there are plenty of women who can beat me up...I give you George Foremans daughter...she's awesome.
But, how many woman Police Officers are George Foremans daughter?
Most of the ones I see, I could knock out easily in one punch. Not that I would do something like that, but there are plenty of violent felons who will.
In fact, I don't think any man should be a cop unless he is tough enough to hold his own. You see that skinny little woman on "Cops" who got blasted in the face by the criminal? She quit...face was broken in a hundred pieces.
I'm not trying to degrade women, so don't try the political correctness willy wanker with me.
I happen to love women...my Mom is a woman
I'm only pointing out something that goes along with what Dudeistmonk is alluding to....sort of. In our rush to re-define what a man and a woman are supposed to be like, we got stupid along the way.
Cheers, Dave
Probably the funniest post I've ever seen from you.
Obvious sarcasm does wonders once in a while
I prefer the subtle (or so obvious that it isn't obvious like the "blimp" stuff a while back), but I'm glad it's appreciated.Probably the funniest post I've ever seen from you.
Obvious sarcasm does wonders once in a while
Mike
Unrepresented
Something Borderline Offensive
Marketing.
Totally agree about the idea of social constructs being used to define something as abstract as "masculinity." And like Satori, I agree that utlity should be a trait that both genders appreciate. The real issue here is that our society has altered the value of different skills over the generations.
How does this work? A woman picks up the phone and orders a sugar daddy, or lucrative job, for delivery by Fedex the next day? Most women or men who are broke and un-educated tend to stay broke and un-educated.
How does somebody demand my job? The only way is to compete with me. Bring 'em on.
The only sugar daddies I know of are politicians and ministers. And the problem is that sugar daddies tend to want more than one woman / partner.
I don't know very many women who are not either working for a wage or raising kids. Often they are doing both. For most working class people, neither sex has a choice. Married couples with kids tend to figure out whatever arrangement works best, based on their circumstances.
I remember being pissed about that too. I mean the draft, not your sister.
Most TV commercials appeal to the lowest possible intelligence of both sexes.
I phrased that harshly and I came across like a bit of an *** . "Demand his job." was not really proper. The point I'm trying to get at is that many elements of our culture are based upon a woman not working... The man buys diner and flowers, the man buys the shiny thing that costs 2 months pay when they get married.... Yet now women work and make good money so something has to change. Also I'd like to point out that while the statistics will say that a man makes more than a woman in whatever job you also have to take into consideration that women who work as a whole make more on average than men who work as a whole on average. This is because women (in a relationship) have a choice, take the **** job or stay at home.
...and I'm not saying that life isn't tough for a lot of women, especially single mothers, so don't mis-understand me here. There are people of both sexs that have life real tough (did you know the majority of homeless are divorced men?) lets not let the vocal minority of suffering individuals cloud our judgment regarding the bigger picture.
Also a woman's power throughout history was never quantified but was always there. Women have always controlled the world via sex, and by shaping the minds of the next generation. It's very indirect and slow and there are lots of variables, but there is no denying that women have power that men will never attain. As we continue to place more and more value on the working women we place less and less value on the stay at home mom and the role of the mother in general, and I feel like this can only end poorly for us as a society...You can see it happening all around and the evidence is in the children.
I completely understand the things you say. There is a certain amount of "identity/ role confusion" amongst "Some" women.
You cant change nature by passing feel-good laws or social engineering or even political correctness.
Women have different feelings than men...not better or worse, but different. A woman trying to be a man simply doesn't work.
An example is the amount of women Police Officers.
Often a woman can diffuse a situation much better than a man. Other things they can do better just by nature.
However, it's dangerous to tell a 110 pound woman to take on the part of someone who has to do mortal hand to hand combat with a violent felon is stupid.
Sure there are plenty of women who can beat me up...I give you George Foremans daughter...she's awesome.
But, how many woman Police Officers are George Foremans daughter?
Most of the ones I see, I could knock out easily in one punch. Not that I would do something like that, but there are plenty of violent felons who will.
In fact, I don't think any man should be a cop unless he is tough enough to hold his own. You see that skinny little woman on "Cops" who got blasted in the face by the criminal? She quit...face was broken in a hundred pieces.
I'm not trying to degrade women, so don't try the political correctness willy wanker with me.
I happen to love women...my Mom is a woman
I'm only pointing out something that goes along with what Dudeistmonk is alluding to....sort of. In our rush to re-define what a man and a woman are supposed to be like, we got stupid along the way.
Cheers, Dave
Exactly we get so caught up in equality that we forget forget silly little things like raising our children.
and I love women too, heck maybe I'm just a little bitter cause I was dating a bit of a feminist who broke my heart...but I digress.
Yesterday.
Yesterday...
...but then I guess living in the Detroit Metro area means I run into a lot of unemployed people living on welfare, male and female.
