Are used costs hurting our community?

[S.O.T.G. Rich]

I would like people's opinion on the subject.
Today scrolling through the classifieds.... I think about how much builders are charging for instruments based on resale. I believe we enable builders to charge ridiculous prices for their work by over pricing the used market.

 

[DeliriumTremens]

The trend on TB lately has been higher end instruments in the classifieds anyway so the depreciation should be less than say a MIM Fender for example. Prices on everything have increased over the last few years also and a bass is a luxury purchase (even a Squier).

 

[lfmn16]

The tail doesn’t wag the dog and new prices don’t drive used prices.

 

[Geri O]

I would like people's opinion on the subject.
Today scrolling through the classifieds.... I think about how much builders are charging for instruments based on resale. I believe we enable builders to charge ridiculous prices for their work by over pricing the used market.

So what’s the answer?

 

[dalkowski]

I believe we enable builders to charge ridiculous prices for their work by over pricing the used market.

The tail doesn’t wag the dog and new prices don’t drive used prices.

^^^ This.

The value of anything is the price another person is willing to pay for it. If someone is willing to pay a builder a certain premium for his/her wares, then that there is the free market in action.

And not for nuthin' but shouldn't a builder be compensated appropriately for his/her time and specialized skills?

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

^^^ This.

The value of anything is the price another person is willing to pay for it. If someone is willing to pay a builder a certain premium for his/her wares, then that there is the free market in action.

And not for nuthin' but shouldn't a builder be compensated appropriately for his/her time and specialized skills?

Absolutely. These are nonessential items and people should price them however they wish. If the prices were actually ridiculous no one would buy them. The markup on them is far less than countless things we take for granted, and why shouldn’t a master craftsman who has spent decades honing their craft make a fair amount of profit for their hard work?

These sorts of threads are always funny to me- makes me wonder how person A who complains about instrument prices would feel if person B started a thread saying A doesn’t deserve the money they make and the should be paid less.

 

[gln1955]

The used market is about as close to an unregulated free market as you'll probably find anywhere. Are you actually saying used sellers should charge less than the market dictates so that new prices are lower? This boggles my mind.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

 

[user362432]

Inflation drives prices up.
But, we are cannot discuss that issue here.

 

[Killing Floor]

I'm not a builder. WARNING!!! DO NOT TRUST ME WITH POWER TOOLS!!!
Quick question - - - don't you deserve to be paid fairly for your job?

Suppose it takes 100 hours to build a truly handmade bass. Or suppose it takes 40 in an organized, professional shop with scale, like Roscoe, for example. Or suppose it takes 20 hours for a semi-custom assembler type builder who sources the parts, outsources the woodwork and/or painting or maybe only does the "fit and finish" work. (Just guessing hours so roll with it)

Bear in mind that I am also not floating in money so I get that really nice basses are expensive. I stared at a really lovely Alembic last week that was about $16K and had a hard time processing that.

BUT...

The going rate for a handyman, general household services is $60-75 per hour.
Going rate for an electrician is $120-160.

Does an artisan making a musical instrument by hand deserve to earn as much per hour as the guy you might hire to clean your gutters or wire your ceiling fan? I think so.

Now suppose that artisan has very in-demand skills that I recognize I don't have, and that you recognize (by virtue that you're not making your own) you don't have either. Does that artisan with rare and demanded skills deserve to earn $100K before taxes? $150K? $200K? More? I think so.

I think if you owned a car repair shop you'd laugh at anybody who suggested your new employee shouldn't bill in $100+ hourly. And I can find 100 car repair shops within 5 miles of my house.

Skills are worth paying for and more importantly, the people with these skills deserve to be paid for them.

 

[ClusterFlux]

I think about how much builders are charging for instruments based on resale. I believe we enable builders to charge ridiculous prices for their work by over pricing the used market.

Yeah, that's... not how pricing actually works.

The price of a new instrument is based on the cost to manufacture, inventory, distribute, market, advertise, and support a new instrument, along with salaries and a profit margin (which is essentially split with the retailer).

I'd be shocked if most builders ultimately have more than a 5% margin. In other words, it's not likely they can arbitrarily pad their costs by 50% and rake in the bucks. Any manufacturer who tries that would be destroyed by competitors who are willing to take home a 5% margin.

No, the way it works is that the price of a used good is largely anchored off the price of the new item.

I'd also add that you can get a decent instrument for $200 - $300 these days, and a lot of really good instruments for $800 or less. These are hardly "ridiculous prices."

 

[marchone]

My 1968 Fender Telecaster was $325 new. Today the historical currency equivalent with cost of living and inflation increases make that money worth about $2000 today.

With so many good used axes going for less than a grand today I’d call that a win.

 

[Jefenator]

Could have to do with shipping. Kind of hard for a buyer or seller to justify $100 shipping on a $400 bass.

 

[sawzalot]

The market is the market. What people are willing to pay is what people are willing to pay.

 

[ToneMonkey]

I would like people's opinion on the subject.
Today scrolling through the classifieds.... I think about how much builders are charging for instruments based on resale. I believe we enable builders to charge ridiculous prices for their work by over pricing the used market.

I not sure builders consider resale value at all. Seriously. Why would that ever factor into the original price point? Builders only care about the first sale.

 

[MVE]

I would like people's opinion on the subject.
Today scrolling through the classifieds.... I think about how much builders are charging for instruments based on resale. I believe we enable builders to charge ridiculous prices for their work by over pricing the used market.

The only thing that allows builders to charge ridiculous prices for their work is their name and reputation, which they have earned through hard work, great customer service and fine craftsmanship.
And trust me, none of those guys or gals are getting rich.

 

[Altitude]

There’s an active thread right now where a guy is (sincerely; no fault on him) asking if we think $1200 was too much for a Fernandes.

No judgment. Just an observation that five years ago you could buy four of them at that price if you could find them.

 

[bobba66]

If I had made better decisions when I was younger I would have much nicer stuff now.

 

[Dabndug]

I'm not sure how supply is in the US, but here in Oz the supply of new instruments has dried up due to the impact of the pandemic on production and shipping. This, coupled with a COVID bump in demand, is sure to push used prices up.

 

[Rev. Cornelius]

My belief is craftspersons should be able to charge whatever the going rate (or what the market will bear) for their product. The cost of supplies, business overhead, and an hourly rate are all functions of the cost of their products. Whether the value of their work compared to the value of other professions is unfortunately not always based on the benefits the community derives as a whole. Here is an example not related to the bass community. Plumbers charge any where 70 and 130 dollar per hour in the area where I live. Cancer researchers make about 40 per hour. So I pay the 70 to 130 when I have too. But wouldn't I pay more than 40 (or a lot more) if my wife was diagnosed with cancer?
Sorry, just my rant.
Thanks