are we being ripped off by expensive manufactured basses?

[FretNoMore]

I don't see why people have to make up reasons to justify owning things. Just admit you find it satisfying to own and handle a rare, vintage, beautiful, high quality or expensive as h-ll item, and be honest about it. If it also makes the right sounds - great bonus.

 

[Walfretless5]

With electric guitars, the "hand craftmanship" is far less of an issue. Putting pickups in a routed hole is not brain surgery. The biggest factor between cheap guitars and good ones have always been the necks. They aren't hand carving the necks. In fact, today, with the way the machines cut the wood, you have a better chance of getting a good neck on a $500 bass than you did on a top of the line model in 1980.

You are truly delusional.....

 

[Black Bart]

I was recently looking to get an acoustic bass and was eyeballing the Warwick Alien as well as a few others, but I couldn't stomach spending that much money on a product made in China. The price wasn't the issue, nor do I have anything against overseas manufactured instruments, it was the thought that the company had made this move just to increase their margins by saving on production costs but keeping the MSRP the same that made me look elsewhere.

I know companies need to make money to survive, I don't take issue with that, but I do take issue with selling an instrument based on a brand and the perception of that brands manufacturing quality when in fact, it is not manufactured as that perception would suggest.

 

[Ralph Notoro]

You are truly delusional.....

Keep telling yourself that.

 

[wvbass]

With electric guitars, the "hand craftmanship" is far less of an issue. Putting pickups in a routed hole is not brain surgery. The biggest factor between cheap guitars and good ones have always been the necks. They aren't hand carving the necks. In fact, today, with the way the machines cut the wood, you have a better chance of getting a good neck on a $500 bass than you did on a top of the line model in 1980.

You are truly delusional.....

I don't agree with most things that Ralph says. In fact, I think many of his opinions and positions are just plain wrong. But, I have to say, I pretty much agree with his statement here. In terms of playability and sound, the current process for mass producing basses can make some amazing instruments. With CNC used to do a lot of the cutting and carving, necks have gotten very good and very consistent. A $500 bass can be spectacular in terms of sound and playability. It can even be pretty nice looking.

Is a more expensive bass worth it? That is up to the purchaser, but there are things you can get in a more expensive instrument that you won't get in a $500 bass. That is about the price where the metal parts start getting a little better, but you have to watch out for easily stripped screws, bridges that buckle from the tension of the strings (Ibanez!), and frets made of a fairly soft alloy. You also get less by-hand attention to frets, so fret sprout is more common and the bass may need some fretwork to get it set up to its full potential. All of that can be done to a $500 bass and still be a lot cheaper than a $5,000 bass.

What you really get out of a more expensive bass is up to you. Maybe you just get bragging rights. Maybe you get an instrument that is unique to you - built for you and to your specifications. Maybe you appreciate a master craftsman's woodworking skills (Fodera). Maybe you like a nearly perfect fit and finish, or an instrument where every aspect of the design has obviously been carefully thought out(Dingwall). Maybe you finally get "that sound in your head." Maybe you prefer functional artwork (Ritter).

As far as I know, the only expensive bass that is a rip-off is a Darren Huff bass.

Edit: How many expensive bass bashing threads do we really need?

 

[hover]

this is a bass forum that tons of people just starting out on their bass journey probably frequent. I feel it is in their best interest to hear clearly (and often...really anytime these threads about expensive basses come up) the message that expensive is absolutely in no way necessary for them to begin, excel, and or reach the pinnacle of that journey. Spend that money in the studio on the world's best drummers instead. Trust me, those memories will last a lifetime, and be worth more to you than any amount of exotic wood.

Dig what you're saying, but my post was in no way implying a tangible connection between high dollar instrument = more talent instantly. I am the absolute LAST person to suggest this, equally proportionate to being the FIRST person to laugh at someone who insists it does.

Dude, all I play are mass-produced, modified bolt-on basses.

 

[Jefff]

I have spent more than was necessary on occasion but I have never been ripped off.

Ed Roman was a marketing con man. In my opinion, worse than those he targeted.

 

[Walfretless5]

Keep telling yourself that.

It's pretty clear.....

I don't agree with most things that Ralph says. In fact, I think many of his opinions and positions are just plain wrong. But, I have to say, I pretty much agree with his statement here. In terms of playability and sound, the current process for mass producing basses can make some amazing instruments. With CNC used to do a lot of the cutting and carving, necks have gotten very good and very consistent. A $500 bass can be spectacular in terms of sound and playability. It can even be pretty nice looking.

Is a more expensive bass worth it? That is up to the purchaser, but there are things you can get in a more expensive instrument that you won't get in a $500 bass. That is about the price where the metal parts start getting a little better, but you have to watch out for easily stripped screws, bridges that buckle from the tension of the strings (Ibanez!), and frets made of a fairly soft alloy. You also get less by-hand attention to frets, so fret sprout is more common and the bass may need some fretwork to get it set up to its full potential. All of that can be done to a $500 bass and still be a lot cheaper than a $5,000 bass.

What you really get out of a more expensive bass is up to you. Maybe you just get bragging rights. Maybe you get an instrument that is unique to you - built for you and to your specifications. Maybe you appreciate a master craftsman's woodworking skills (Fodera). Maybe you like a nearly perfect fit and finish, or an instrument where every aspect of the design has obviously been carefully thought out(Dingwall). Maybe you finally get "that sound in your head." Maybe you prefer functional artwork (Ritter).

As far as I know, the only expensive bass that is a rip-off is a Darren Huff bass.

Edit: How many expensive bass bashing threads do we really need?

My remark was not only meant for that particular one of Ralph's statements ...it's pretty much for all...I just quoted that one because I didn't feel like making an "ALL ABOUT RALPH" thread....
It's pretty clear he has no clue what goes into actually making a fine instrument versus a mass produced Mexican Squire. A lot of the well known Bass luthiers do everything from making there own pre-amps and winding their own pickups. It's not just "dropping pickups in a routed hole". Woods have different characteristics sonically and if he believes that an alder has the same sonic qualities and it makes no difference then maybe thats the case on a Squire (poplar vs alder) , definitely not true on a fine instrument. His Squire sounds better than his Fodera???..thats subjective. I can guarantee that my WALs sound better than ANY Squire that his producers and engineers may love so much. Electronics are a lot more of what a Bass sound is today...and a well designed filtered preamp and hand wound pickups I would think have an edge over a mass produced Squire with a $5 harness and $20 pick up. We elect to pay the price for that, an expensive bass isn't just pretty wood working and finishes...it's quality hardware and electronics that add to that high cost.
If he feels his Squire CNC shaped neck is better than his Fodera...again... subjective. Expensive basses are expensive for a lot of reasons and craftsmanship ,materials and quality are more pricey than on a production instrument. Not to say there aren't some decent production instruments out there...I know that there are. I am not knocking them ,I just don't feel that there is a comparison to be made, it's apples to oranges. Does a Mercedes and a Kia both get you from point A to point B? Of course....does it make the Kia as good as the Mercedes or the same worth? Probably not. You get what you pay for in most instances....and a handmade instrument is well worth the money and not a rip off. Oh BTW my basses are all between 18 and 25 years old and I haven't had ONE issue with any of them....I know many guys with production Fenders who have scraped instruments for bad necks that were younger than 10 years old.

 

[zazin]

Vintage Guitars, as mentioned by some of us here, are so imperfect, sounds lousy, can be difficult to play due to the low-grade mass produced factor, yet it can fetched very good money! But that's the fact! Nowadays, young punks wants to have that poopy vintage sound, the old school lousy sound. Now that's rediculous......

 

[wvbass]

It's pretty clear.....



My remark was not only meant for that particular one of Ralph's statements ...it's pretty much for all...I just quoted that one because I didn't feel like making an "ALL ABOUT RALPH" thread....
It's pretty clear he has no clue what goes into actually making a fine instrument versus a mass produced Mexican Squire. A lot of the well known Bass luthiers do everything from making there own pre-amps and winding their own pickups. It's not just "dropping pickups in a routed hole". Woods have different characteristics sonically and if he believes that an alder has the same sonic qualities and it makes no difference then maybe thats the case on a Squire (poplar vs alder) , definitely not true on a fine instrument. His Squire sounds better than his Fodera???..thats subjective. I can guarantee that my WALs sound better than ANY Squire that his producers and engineers may love so much. Electronics are a lot more of what a Bass sound is today...and a well designed filtered preamp and hand wound pickups I would think have an edge over a mass produced Squire with a $5 harness and $20 pick up. We elect to pay the price for that, an expensive bass isn't just pretty wood working and finishes...it's quality hardware and electronics that add to that high cost.
If he feels his Squire CNC shaped neck is better than his Fodera...again... subjective. Expensive basses are expensive for a lot of reasons and craftsmanship ,materials and quality are more pricey than on a production instrument. Not to say there aren't some decent production instruments out there...I know that there are. I am not knocking them ,I just don't feel that there is a comparison to be made, it's apples to oranges. Does a Mercedes and a Kia both get you from point A to point B? Of course....does it make the Kia as good as the Mercedes or the same worth? Probably not. You get what you pay for in most instances....and a handmade instrument is well worth the money and not a rip off. Oh BTW my basses are all between 18 and 25 years old and I haven't had ONE issue with any of them....I know many guys with production Fenders who have scraped instruments for bad necks that were younger than 10 years old.

I agree with most of your post. To be fair, though, there are probably more engineers and producers out there that would rather work with a P bass than a Wal. It doesn't make either one better than the other. Aside from that wood is wood...Fenders are one-piece necks. A one-piece neck is going to be more likely to develop a "bad neck" than a multi-laminate neck. It doesn't really matter whether that one-ply neck is on a Squier or a Sadowsky. I'd bet on my $499 Epiphone's multi-ply neck being more stable over time than my US Lakland, but in a sample size of 1 and 1, anything could happen.

Also, saying that a big part of a fine instrument is the electronics is sort of an argument against an expensive instrument, IMO. There are plenty of really good after-market upgrades available, including the exact same pickups and electronics used in very high-end instruments. A player-selected, less expensive bass with upgraded electronics really can effectively get you everything a super-high-end bass can, tone-wise.

Don't get me wrong, I am not remotely opposed to high-end basses. I got mine at bargain prices, but I have a US Lakland, a Dingwall, and an Alembic. They are great - the superior workmanship is obvious. But, I do think that believing that a high-end bass is always going to sound better or play better than a low end bass is just trying to justify a price difference. Having said that, I would be your Wals are amazing players with killer tone. I don't know that I would prefer either of them to my MIM Fender, though.

 

[SRFSterling5]

Value to the end user is really all that matters, not necessarily would it be a rip off. Just not worth the pricing to the end user, who would probably not shell out that kind of dough in the first place. To make a blanket statement that high end basses and certain brands in particular are a rip off because of price may be your opinion and that's fine. The problem I have is with the negative comments on high end basses and sometimes undeservingly where the individual has never played a high end instrument, only to put forth negative banter. If you try one, didn't come away enthusiastic and couldn't see the point of paying the price as it did not meet your value and performance expectations, fine. Your happiness with your purchase shouldn't be influenced by what others on forum think.

 

[Ralph Notoro]

It's pretty clear.....



My remark was not only meant for that particular one of Ralph's statements ...it's pretty much for all...I just quoted that one because I didn't feel like making an "ALL ABOUT RALPH" thread....
It's pretty clear he has no clue what goes into actually making a fine instrument versus a mass produced Mexican Squire. A lot of the well known Bass luthiers do everything from making there own pre-amps and winding their own pickups. It's not just "dropping pickups in a routed hole". Woods have different characteristics sonically and if he believes that an alder has the same sonic qualities and it makes no difference then maybe thats the case on a Squire (poplar vs alder) , definitely not true on a fine instrument. His Squire sounds better than his Fodera???..thats subjective. I can guarantee that my WALs sound better than ANY Squire that his producers and engineers may love so much. Electronics are a lot more of what a Bass sound is today...and a well designed filtered preamp and hand wound pickups I would think have an edge over a mass produced Squire with a $5 harness and $20 pick up. We elect to pay the price for that, an expensive bass isn't just pretty wood working and finishes...it's quality hardware and electronics that add to that high cost.
If he feels his Squire CNC shaped neck is better than his Fodera...again... subjective. Expensive basses are expensive for a lot of reasons and craftsmanship ,materials and quality are more pricey than on a production instrument. Not to say there aren't some decent production instruments out there...I know that there are. I am not knocking them ,I just don't feel that there is a comparison to be made, it's apples to oranges. Does a Mercedes and a Kia both get you from point A to point B? Of course....does it make the Kia as good as the Mercedes or the same worth? Probably not. You get what you pay for in most instances....and a handmade instrument is well worth the money and not a rip off. Oh BTW my basses are all between 18 and 25 years old and I haven't had ONE issue with any of them....I know many guys with production Fenders who have scraped instruments for bad necks that were younger than 10 years old.

You obviously misunderstood .

For starters, I have nothing against a high end bass if someone wants them. I believe nothing is overpriced if you're happy with it.

#2: You may like your Wal and that's great. I was talking about Foderas. I think they're especially toneless for some reason. I would take a Wal over a Fodera and a Fodera cost twice as much. So there. That proves my point.

Thirdly, it's irrelevant if a luthier winds his own pickups. What matters is how they sound.

The comparison of a Mercedes to a Kia is not analogous. One is superior for many reasons. Plus appearance is a huge factor in the price of a car. I don't need a bass to be a hard carved dragon with multi colored wings. If it looks like a J, it's fine with me.

You get what you pay for -- true. But you also pay what you pay. In other words, you can get the same socks at KMart at Macy's and they'll cost you twice as much as Macys. That doesn't mean the SAME SOCKS that you paid more for will fare any better. They're the same.

Your comment about Fenders is also irrelevant. Fenders can go for 2K. I've had a Squier for 8 years never had an issue with it.

So you see, I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy your instrument. You absolutely should. But that doesn't change the facts. All guitars are made in part by machine and in part by hand. And these days they can be mass produced to be pro quality. And exotic woods, hand wound pups and fancy finishes don't necessarily make for a better instrument. I'm not saying they never do. They just don't automatically do.

 

[chris_b]

No one is being ripped off because they don't have to buy.

Where you don't have competiton or an alternative, THEN you can and probably will get ripped off. There are many examples of this but probably not in the world of bass.

 

[Uncle Psychosis]

It's pretty clear.....
His Squire sounds better than his Fodera???..thats subjective. I can guarantee that my WALs sound better than ANY Squire that his producers and engineers may love so much.

Genuinely LOLed at these two sentences following each other.

There is no "better" when it comes to sound. Some people like old school passive thump. Some people like modern comb filtered preamp sounds. Some people like brand new rounds. Some like dead flats. None are "the best", just different. Sound is, ironically, one area where you absolutely can argue that a Squier is "better" than a WAL or Fodera, so long as you remember that what you're really saying is "better for me". If there was a "the best" when it came to sounds then all expensive basses would be using the same preamp, pickups, and electronics.

Expensive basses are expensive for a lot of reasons and craftsmanship ,materials and quality are more pricey than on a production instrument.

This is true. You also pay a premium because of economy of scale (small builders can't buy parts as cheaply as large ones) and in many cases you're paying a "premium item" fee too (Apple charge more for their products than they need to because they are marketing themselves as a premium product). Also small builders may also need to do some tasks that would be done equally well on machine (in less time) but they can't afford the equipment.

There are lots of reasons why expensive basses are expensive. However not all of those reasons translate directly to quality. Many of them do, but not all.

 

[Walfretless5]

Genuinely LOLed at these two sentences following each other.

There is no "better" when it comes to sound. Some people like old school passive thump. Some people like modern comb filtered preamp sounds. Some people like brand new rounds. Some like dead flats. None are "the best", just different. Sound is, ironically, one area where you absolutely can argue that a Squier is "better" than a WAL or Fodera, so long as you remember that what you're really saying is "better for me". If there was a "the best" when it came to sounds then all expensive basses would be using the same preamp, pickups, and electronics.





This is true. You also pay a premium because of economy of scale (small builders can't buy parts as cheaply as large ones) and in many cases you're paying a "premium item" fee too (Apple charge more for their products than they need to because they are marketing themselves as a premium product). Also small builders may also need to do some tasks that would be done equally well on machine (in less time) but they can't afford the equipment.

There are lots of reasons why expensive basses are expensive. However not all of those reasons translate directly to quality. Many of them do, but not all.

I think you have missed my point though....Isn't that what the word SUBJECTIVE means?? It depends on who is listening...it is obvious that we all like different tone but your "better for me" argument in the context of this thread is has more to do with "what can I afford"...or "I won't spend money on a custom instrument because I feel I am being ripped off". My argument has nothing to do with what strings you have on your instrument, it is more about the worth of a custom instrument compared to a production model. You pay more for what goes into making these instruments....period. Is it better because of that ....most of the time it is. I never really saw anyone play a custom instrument and play a Squire and choose the Squire if it WASN"T based on price. I myself have bought things because it was "The best that I could afford at the time" , not because I felt i would be getting ripped off buying the more expensive choice.

I agree that they all don't translate into quality. You absolutely pay a premium for extensive labor and demand...I don't consider that I am being ripped off when I buy an Apple product any more than when I am buying a high end bass.

 

[wvbass]

So...the answer to the question posed by this thread is NO. (Darren Huff aside)

Past that, we are discussing "Is the price worth it to me?" and projecting that onto others by assuming "is the price worth it?" is the same question. Sound about right?

 

[Ralph Notoro]

I never really saw anyone play a custom instrument and play a Squire and choose the Squire if it WASN"T based on price. I myself have bought things because it was "The best that I could afford at the time" , not because I felt i would be getting ripped off buying the more expensive choice.

I agree that they all don't translate into quality. You absolutely pay a premium for extensive labor and demand...I don't consider that I am being ripped off when I buy an Apple product any more than when I am buying a high end bass.

I already gave you several examples of that. My clients did not know which bass was which and how much it cost. I simply asked, "which sound do you like better?" So your presumption is wrong.

I owned a Fodera. I WANTED it to be better. It took a few years but finally had to admit to myself, it simply didn't sound all that great. I never expected a Squier to be superior. Once I realized it was, I sold the Fodera and never looked back.

 

[staindbass]

i don't think we are being ripped off. on most expensive instruments the materials are chosen and inspected more carefully, and more material is rejected. those materials are turned into basses that usually have a higher quality of fit and finish. that takes more time, and adds cost. i bet gibson does not use cheap fret wire of questionable metallic purity made in china. yes the "name" can add money, but with that name you usually get better customer service, and security in the fact that that name is highly regarded, as well as pride of ownership. ( in other words, you would look cooler jumping onstage with a fender rather thanks a cheap cort bass.) then there is vanity. i can play a one hour gig with a $200 bass and make 20 grand. i choose to do gigs with a $700 basses because i like it. i have a $5000 bass in my closet. its very nice, and has better fit and finish, prettier wood, nicer tuning keys, higher gloss. it weighs 3 pounds more than my stage basses, and i would always be worried about scratching it, (well, the tech would scratch it, and i would find it later lol). everyone has a different reason, its very hard to generalize. a honda civic gets me to the store just like a ferrari, same question there.

 

[tmdazed]

I cant afford something , therefore , I am getting ripped off

bit linear no?

 

[ggunn]

I don't feel like my musicman basses are overpriced.

Full stop.